A question concerning rye/bent grass fairways in the Middle Atlantic

[Jerry Kluger]

I was up visiting some friends in the Washington, DC area and like me they have been on Medicare for quite a while and some of them have significant issues with walking, etc.  The courses in the area have rye or bent grass fairways and their policy with regard to cart traffic is that once the temperature reaches 90 degrees all carts must remain on the cartpath; the is exactly the time where my friends most need the carts in order to play the game.  Is the rye/bent grass so stressed at these temperatures that golf cart traffic will cause damage so severe as to warrant prohibiting the carts from driving on the fairways? (I am pleased to say that I chose to walk with a caddie and made it around without any issues - this is my continuing preparation for the ordeal of the Buda Cup.)

[John Emerson]

Yes.  When severe heat stress is present you can not only injure cool season grasses with cart traffic, but outright kill it.  Trust me superintendents don’t make the “no carts” call for the hell of it.

[Jon Sweet]

I was up visiting some friends in the Washington, DC area and like me they have been on Medicare for quite a while and some of them have significant issues with walking, etc.  The courses in the area have rye or bent grass fairways and their policy with regard to cart traffic is that once the temperature reaches 90 degrees all carts must remain on the cartpath; the is exactly the time where my friends most need the carts in order to play the game.  Is the rye/bent grass so stressed at these temperatures that golf cart traffic will cause damage so severe as to warrant prohibiting the carts from driving on the fairways? (I am pleased to say that I chose to walk with a caddie and made it around without any issues - this is my continuing preparation for the ordeal of the Buda Cup.)

The club I caddy at overseeds but the rye dies off when it’s hot and the Bermuda comes in. I wasn’t aware of rye fairways elsewhere in the area during the heat.

[Mike Sweeney]

That region seems to be the crossroads for Bermuda vs Other Northern grass.


The Naval Academy Golf Course finished up the renovation, and while I have not played the new version, all reports are that the grassing is much better and completely different. Here is a summary of what the Super Eric Davis did:


https://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/navy/ac-cs-naval-academy-golf-course-restoration-20200812-vt3i4vj7nvcxteepvg64k6dsie-story.html



"David personally oversaw changes to the surfaces, a process that began with removing unwanted strains of grass. Originally, the course featured Poa annua bent grass greens and Baymont Bermuda grass fairways. Much of the rough was ryegrass, fescue and bluegrass, while the bunker banks were Zoysia grass.

Over time, many of these various grasses invaded the fairways and greens where they were unwanted.

David chose a bentgrass known as 007 for the greens because of its ability to withstand drought and traffic.

A Bermuda grass known as Tahoma 31 was planted in the fairways and the difference was immediately noticeable to members. David said Tahoma 31 has a high tolerance to cold and drought along with a high density that holds up to high traffic."

[Dan Herrmann]

My club is in 19520 (Elverson PA), and we're often cart-path only if there is an extended (2-3 week?) dry spell and high temperatures.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The mid-atlantic area is one of the more difficult places to grow grass. Richmond is far enough south to grow Bermuda but MD, Delaware, and south PA are tough because northern grasses don't thrive there. This was even true at Victoria National when I was there for a few days last September. After 11:00 it was cart path only. What my supers have told me is that it stays too warm at night--in the 70s. I live in the mts which is better but Ballyhack is in Roanoke and my other clubs in the DC area always were stressed severely by late July and August. Hats off to the supers that struggle every summer.

[John Emerson]

The mid-atlantic area is one of the more difficult places to grow grass. Richmond is far enough south to grow Bermuda but MD, Delaware, and south PA are tough because northern grasses don't thrive there. This was even true at Victoria National when I was there for a few days last September. After 11:00 it was cart path only. What my supers have told me is that it stays too warm at night--in the 70s. I live in the mts which is better but Ballyhack is in Roanoke and my other clubs in the DC area always were stressed severely by late July and August. Hats off to the supers that struggle every summer.

Cool season grasses do just fine in DE and MD, and especially PA, for now. 90% of PA isn’t even in the transition zone. There’s just a small window of the summer where it is very difficult. But that window is getting bigger and bigger.  In my almost 20 years in the turf mgmt industry, ideal growth zones for warm season grasses has extended north at an insane clip.  This has been, hands down, the most visible/noticeable environmental shift during my career.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I mean this in the most friendly way possible, but if you are simply playing golf on any type of grass-like material in the Mid Atlantic in the summer, consider yourself lucky. Mother Nature would have that be straight dirt and weeds if not for a hellacious effort by greenkeepers.


I've heard similar about Bermuda/Zoysia's march northward. The Llanerch superintendent was on the Fried Egg podcast and he said New York is now Philly, Philly is now DC area, and the DC area is...something else entirely.

[Tom_Doak]

Part of the problem is also that the superintendents are held to a different standard.  When I was a kid you'd see burn marks on the fairways in summer due to golf cart tires, but the greenkeeper was in no danger of losing his job over them.  Now, he has to keep you off, because it has to look perfect.

[John Emerson]

I mean this in the most friendly way possible, but if you are simply playing golf on any type of grass-like material in the Mid Atlantic in the summer, consider yourself lucky. Mother Nature would have that be straight dirt and weeds if not for a hellacious effort by greenkeepers.


I've heard similar about Bermuda/Zoysia's march northward. The Llanerch superintendent was on the Fried Egg podcast and he said New York is now Philly, Philly is now DC area, and the DC area is...something else entirely.

Tony,
I pretty much agree with that.  I’ve been in the transition zone my whole career.  You can definitely have Bermuda greens in DC. ::Side story ahead::  I remember my first advisor meeting with Dr. A.J. Powell (legendary turf scientist) before I started my undergrad at Univ of Kentucky. I think this was 2001…give or take. Before we got started he just returned from a meeting with a local superintendent and the green committee about regrassing fairways.  He was visibly  worried.  He told me that he just recommended them to plant zoysia. He literally couldn’t believe he said that.  It was the first time in his 40+ year career he recommended warm season grasses this far north.  He said “god I hope I am right!”.  That club ended up being the demonstration golf course and everyone (surrounding golf courses) followed suit when they converted their grasses to warm season. Needless to say it was a home run recommendation, but the moral is that he never thought he’d see the day where warm season grasses could be used that far north. Since then that line has moved even further north.  So, this environmental shift is here now. Wether we choose to accept or not is the question…

[Wayne_Kozun]

"David personally oversaw changes to the surfaces, a process that began with removing unwanted strains of grass. Originally, the course featured Poa annua bent grass greens and Baymont Bermuda grass fairways.

A question to the turf experts - I always thought that poa annua and bent are two different types of grasses.  Is this quote incorrect, perhaps a misunderstanding by the author, or missing a comma between poa annua and bent, or is "Poa annua bent" a type of grass?

[John Emerson]

"David personally oversaw changes to the surfaces, a process that began with removing unwanted strains of grass. Originally, the course featured Poa annua bent grass greens and Baymont Bermuda grass fairways.

A question to the turf experts - I always thought that poa annua and bent are two different types of grasses.  Is this quote incorrect, perhaps a misunderstanding by the author, or missing a comma between poa annua and bent, or is "Poa annua bent" a type of grass?

It should read something like this “Poa annua and bentgrass greens….”  Poa annua is not the same as bentgrass(completely different species), but they are both cool season grasses. Poa annua is the Latin name for annual bluegrass and Agrostis stolonifera is the Latin name for bentgrass.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Thanks John, that is what I thought.
Anyone have any idea where "po anna" comes from?  Golf announcers use this term all the time, but you have to be very lazy to shorten poa annua into po anna.

[Kalen Braley]

Over 90 is an interesting benchmark given that in Northern Utah (in the valleys), you're likely to have 70-80 days per year that will hit 90 or higher. Presuming most courses are bentgrass, I rarely see courses that prohibit carts in the fairways and when they do its usually year-round limitations for safety concerns like steep conditions for courses built on the side of the mountain.

P.S.  Spokane would usually get 10-15 90+ days too and I don't recall seeing those restrictions either.  Perhaps its a humidity thing?

[Tommy Williamsen]

John, I don't know any courses in the DC area that have Bermuda greens. Certainly not the clubs where I was a member.

[John Emerson]

John, I don't know any courses in the DC area that have Bermuda greens. Certainly not the clubs where I was a member.

I don’t know if there are Bermuda greens or not as well.  My point was that with the current climate, you can definitely grow bermudagrass on greens, tees or fairways.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Over 90 is an interesting benchmark given that in Northern Utah (in the valleys), you're likely to have 70-80 days per year that will hit 90 or higher. Presuming most courses are bentgrass, I rarely see courses that prohibit carts in the fairways and when they do its usually year-round limitations for safety concerns like steep conditions for courses built on the side of the mountain.

P.S.  Spokane would usually get 10-15 90+ days too and I don't recall seeing those restrictions either.  Perhaps its a humidity thing?

You answered your own question.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Thanks John, that is what I thought.
Anyone have any idea where "po anna" comes from?  Golf announcers use this term all the time, but you have to be very lazy to shorten poa annua into po anna.

Proper pronunciation of poa annua feels like a mouth full of marbles. Say it 50 times and you will likely lose the discipline. That's why industry guys (who say the infernal word a million times a season) trim, shorten, and contract it yielding stuff like the great Jack Nicklaus' "po anya" pronunciation.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

"David personally oversaw changes to the surfaces, a process that began with removing unwanted strains of grass. Originally, the course featured Poa annua bent grass greens and Baymont Bermuda grass fairways.

A question to the turf experts - I always thought that poa annua and bent are two different types of grasses.  Is this quote incorrect, perhaps a misunderstanding by the author, or missing a comma between poa annua and bent, or is "Poa annua bent" a type of grass?

Wayne, very old courses tend to have pure poa stands, while any course that is say 20 years old or so tends to have a mix (hence bent/poa), and brand new courses tend to have pure bent stands in terms of cool-season grasses. There are outliers of course (old courses with lots of bent, etc.). Our particular 20 year old course has varying percentages of bent and poa on the greens, ranging from 90% bent 10% poa to 60% poa 40% bent. So if someone asked me what we have on our greens I would reply with "bent/poa."

[Mike Sweeney]

So if someone asked me what we have on our greens I would reply with "bent/poa."

Tom,


Thanks for your very informative reply(s). After many many years on GCA.com, I know our Supers are under-appreciated.


Fairways and greens.

[Anthony_Nysse]

John, I don't know any courses in the DC area that have Bermuda greens. Certainly not the clubs where I was a member.

I don’t know if there are Bermuda greens or not as well.  My point was that with the current climate, you can definitely grow bermudagrass on greens, tees or fairways.

You could grow them, but you'd have massive winterkill ever winter. Grow them back in, winterkill again & it would be a vicious cycle. Average High & low temps:


Nov-58* & 38*
Dec 48* & 31*
Jan 44* & 27*
Feb 46* & 28*
March 56* & 35*


And these are just averages. DC are gets pretty consistent & thorough snow cover with 8 days in Dec, 12 days in Jan & 8 days in Feb on average. DC hasn't had a winter in 10years where a low temp hasn't been below 20*. That's really tough on bermuda greens, much different than the Carolinas or TX where they have to cover occasionally.
  We are seeing a lot of course utilize some of these newer bermudagrasses as a range tee surface in the middle of the summer because of its recovery abilities. Cool season really doesn't recover much past 88*, but the sub 70* nights are the key.

[jeffwarne]

Part of the problem is also that the superintendents are held to a different standard.  When I was a kid you'd see burn marks on the fairways in summer due to golf cart tires, but the greenkeeper was in no danger of losing his job over them.  Now, he has to keep you off, because it has to look perfect.

This..
and it need to be short and tight enough so that everyone can chunk or thin it.
All so the best player at the club(who recently played Muirfield Village and Oakmont) can widen the gap between himself and enjoyable/teachable golf.

[Ken Moum]

This..
and it needs to be short and tight enough so that everyone can chunk or thin it.
All so the best player at the club(who recently played Muirfield Village and Oakmont) can widen the gap between himself and enjoyable/teachable golf.

That right there is funny, I don't care where you're from.

[Sean_A]

Part of the problem is also that the superintendents are held to a different standard.  When I was a kid you'd see burn marks on the fairways in summer due to golf cart tires, but the greenkeeper was in no danger of losing his job over them.  Now, he has to keep you off, because it has to look perfect.

This..
and it need to be short and tight enough so that everyone can chunk or thin it.
All so the best player at the club(who recently played Muirfield Village and Oakmont) can widen the gap between himself and enjoyable/teachable golf.

Longer fairways on firm courses is a blessing. Yep, some bounce and roll is sacrificed, but the playing surface must be easier to maintain to a high standard. Plus, as you say its easier for handicap play. I praise Gullane for their maintenance meld in this regard. It makes much more sense.

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


Having lived in this transition zone for most of my life I can say emphatically that Bermuda and Zoysia don't work well as an alternative. It's a tricky mix but most of the time you have to manage a combination of poa and bent grass fairways and greens and a mix of rye in the rough. Sure it's tough but in the end the best superintendents find a way to keep it healthy and playable.


In fact the best superintendents tend to keep the water and fertility at the right mix. Their skill is paramount to the equation.


In the end it's on them and it doesn't take long to see who has "it"