[Josh Tarble]

Hey Guys, I haven't posted in a long while...mainly children getting in the way 


But I just got back from a trip to Forest Dunes to play the Loop.  I am absolutely blown away by it.  I can't believe how well each course works from each direction.  Holes I didn't like from one way, I loved from the other.  Some holes I loved each direction.  They're certainly more similar than they are different, but they do play differently from one another.  I'd call it understated in it's brilliance.  The more I reflect on it, the more I want to go back and play it over and over.  Even the yardage book is incredible.


I think in "The Spirit of St. Andrews" there's a note Mackenzie says about a rating system that doesn't have the Old Course at the top is a flawed rating system...well I kind of feel that way about the Loop.  I don't think any rating "structure" can accurately capture the brilliance of the design. 


Anyway, I'd love to have a conversation on the Loop

[Tommy Williamsen]

It must have been an architectural nightmare trying to design bunkered greens that can be approached from two different directions.
It is fun romp.

[Frank Pont]

It must have been an architectural nightmare trying to design bunkered greens that can be approached from two different directions.
It is fun romp.

Actually it is not that hard to design green complexes and bunkering that can be played from two directions.


I found it is much harder to design tees that can be used well for both directions.....

[Stewart Abramson]

I can't believe how well each course works from each direction.  Holes I didn't like from one way, I loved from the other.  Some holes I loved each direction.  They're certainly more similar than they are different, but they do play differently from one another. 

I also feel that the Loop works well from both directions. Having only played it one time in each direction, I found it hard to even remember which hole any particular hole was from the day before unless there was a bold feature such as the swale on Red #2/Black #16  green or the Valley on Red #8. For me it felt like two completely different courses on a similar piece of property. I probably wouldn't have known it was the exact same piece of property if I had played the two courses a week apart and wasn't told where I was. The only issue I had was that the greens were very young and hard making it difficult (for me at least) to get chips and pitches close to many of the holes. I do plan to return and hopefully play better around the greens.

Actually it is not that hard to design green complexes and bunkering that can be played from two directions.I found it is much harder to design tees that can be used well for both directions.....

I'm not certain, but I seem to recall that many, if not most, of the teeing areas at the Loop were not used for both directions. The teeing areas tended to be nondescript and therefore not obvious when the course went the other way


Here are links to photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157682826032733  Loop Red


https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157685672704675  Loop Black

[Peter Flory]

I only had the chance to play it once.  I would love to play it in each direction multiple times to get a better feel for it.

[Tom_Doak]

Actually it is not that hard to design green complexes and bunkering that can be played from two directions.I found it is much harder to design tees that can be used well for both directions.....

I'm not certain, but I seem to recall that many, if not most, of the teeing areas at the Loop were not used for both directions. The teeing areas tended to be nondescript and therefore not obvious when the course went the other way

Stewart:


That's right.  If you keep the course moving in the same direction, a la St Andrews, you can just put the tee boxes out to the side and use them either way, but that gets pretty repetitive, and the greens were more interesting when approached from two directions that weren't 180 degrees opposite.  So, we started shaping the edges of the fairways so they could be used as tees for one direction or the other.  It worked pretty well.


I found siting bunkers that made sense for both directions more difficult than Frank did, maybe because our site had a little more topography than his.  But the greens have enough interest on their own that we figured "less is more" in other aspects of the design, so when in doubt about whether a bunker would interfere with play in one direction or the other, we just left it out.


I wish more people would play it both ways, because that's really what the design is all about, yet a lot of golfers make their plans without taking that into account.


P.S.  They are still keeping it very firm from tee to green, which makes it quite challenging even though there is a ton of short grass out there.  It's the only course I can remember playing where you will see someone wind up 30+ yards over the back of the green.

[Bill Gayne]

I visited Forest Dunes and the loop last summer and found it to be one of the most interesting and creative examples of golf course architecture that I had seen in a long time. I think it's a really difficult idea to execute that Tom made look really simple.

[Dan Herrmann]

Laura and I drove up from Philly in 2019 to play the Loop (and the original Tom W.) design.     I had been up there in 2017 as Doak was still working on the Loop and was amazed at the scale of the place as I walked parts of it, having little knowledge about what hole(s) I was walking.


Let me tell you - we never stopped smiling while playing The Loop(s).   Doak's little guidebook was great (and almost necessary), and the staff were all first rate.


I was 95% of the way to solidifying a 2021 visit, but decided to wait a year due to Covid logistics on the drive up there.    But we'll definitely be back...


I remember playing Bandon before it got really famous, and it provided a great bang for the buck factor.   In my opinion, Forest Dunes may now be the biggest bang for the buck anywhere.    I only hesitate to share my enthusiasm for fear that my "secret" will be discovered by others and the place loses its charm.   I really don't think that'll happen, even with new ownership, but if you love 5 hour rounds, spa treatments and $200 dinners, there are other great options available


PS - Roscommon/Grayling is a cool area.   Great if you love fishing or kayaking, it's located within Huron National Forest.    It's a really beautiful region - here's a taste:  https://greatlakesecho.org/2018/05/14/hiking-through-michigans-masons-tract/

[BCrosby]

I loved The Loop. Closest thing in America to TOC.


Bob

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

A great way to plan on a future trip to The Loop is to play both rounds in the morning,. And after the first round, hop in the car , drive 45 minutes to Black Forest for an early Doak course experience..
Also, at come point a trip should be planned for Silvies Ranch which is a different, but very exciting reversible course.

[Mike Schott]

A great way to plan on a future trip to The Loop is to play both rounds in the morning,. And after the first round, hop in the car , drive 45 minutes to Black Forest for an early Doak course experience..
Also, at come point a trip should be planned for Silvies Ranch which is a different, but very exciting reversible course.

Unfortunately Black Forest NLE. They went under.

[Peter Pallotta]

I loved The Loop. Closest thing in America to TOC.
Bob

Yours differs from the assessment of other respected voices/seasoned observers, most of whom (from what I've read here over the years) think The Loop a '7': a very fine score indeed, but not the extravagant praise bestowed upon many a great new course over these past 15-20 years. I can't comment, other than to suggest the difference lies in the fact that you're recognizing and celebrating 'the architecture' at least as much as you are 'the courses'.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Holes I didn't like from one way, I loved from the other.  Some holes I loved each direction. 

Josh, I've had the privilege of playing the Loop many times, and this comment intrigued me. I like to think of the Loop as 18 Doak/Renaissance greens that I get to play from two directions, with two entirely different sets of choices on consecutive days.  There are two greens, #9, and #5Red/13Black, that I find utterly frustrating and strange and that I want to blow up.


 On the other hand, the entire Black first eight (which are the Red 10-17), and 11B/7R, 12B/6R, 14B/4R, 16B/2R, and 17B/1R are fascinating and great fun to play over and over.  8R is one of my favorite holes, a terrific challenging par 4, while its companion, 10B, is not a favorite.


Re: comments on bunkering, I think they look much easier than they likely were to place and build.  They look like they belong.  Except for the choices made on #9's greenside bunkers, they work perfectly.


Re: comments on firm and fast, the Loop is exemplary thanks to sandy soil, fescue fairways, and the work of Superintendent Rob Falconer and his crew.  I love watching the ball roll on the course.


Unfortunately I haven't played Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal as many times as I have the Loop, and haven't played Doak courses in Australia, New Zealand or Scotland.  With that caveat, I nominate the Loop's 12 Black (shortish par 4), 6 Red (short par 3), 4 Black and 7 Black (short par 4s) as among Mr. Doak's best designed holes.   

[Tom_Doak]

There are two greens, #9, and #5Red/13Black, that I find utterly frustrating and strange and that I want to blow up.

 On the other hand, the entire Black first eight (which are the Red 10-17), and 11B/7R, 12B/6R, 14B/4R, 16B/2R, and 17B/1R are fascinating and great fun to play over and over.  8R is one of my favorite holes, a terrific challenging par 4, while its companion, 10B, is not a favorite.

I've always thought 5 Red / 13 Black was one of the better greens on the course, but I guess everyone's got their own opinion.  I do find the 18th green frustrating, from either direction, but it was one of the first to be shaped and we were still figuring things out a bit.

[Brett Meyer]

There are two greens, #9, and #5Red/13Black, that I find utterly frustrating and strange and that I want to blow up.

 On the other hand, the entire Black first eight (which are the Red 10-17), and 11B/7R, 12B/6R, 14B/4R, 16B/2R, and 17B/1R are fascinating and great fun to play over and over.  8R is one of my favorite holes, a terrific challenging par 4, while its companion, 10B, is not a favorite.

I've always thought 5 Red / 13 Black was one of the better greens on the course, but I guess everyone's got their own opinion.  I do find the 18th green frustrating, from either direction, but it was one of the first to be shaped and we were still figuring things out a bit.

It's interesting to me how everyone is giving different answers to what they find to be the most frustrating/favorite greens on the course. In 3 visits and 7 total plays on the two courses, I've always found 2 Red/16 Black to be the most frustrating. There's no problem issue if the pin is on the right/front of the green, but that left/back plateau is a bit too small and a bit too high for my taste. In subsequent plays, 6 Red/12 Black has moved up right next to it because it's just a bit too shallow/narrow given the typical firmness of the greens. I'm also not a fan of the left side of the green on 6 Black because again, it's too shallow and too tough to get pin high right to have a relatively easy putt. But I like it as the back half of the 12th green on the Red because you should be able to hit your pitch straight enough to leave the straight putt from the front of the green.


I also think that 5 Red/13 Black is one of the better greens on the course but the issue with it is that although it's deep from both directions, you're almost always playing a long shot into it. And because almost the whole thing is convex, it's very tough to hold.


I have no complaints about the 18th green. Many do their best work early in a process...before they start over-thinking things (not that I'm accusing you of that here!). In fact, I find 9 and 18 to be about the two least-questionable greens on the course, if not my favorites.

[Brock Lynch]

My wife and I played in early July and enjoyed both the Black and the Red. We played the Black first and the Red the next day. We thought that the greens set up a bit more challenging and were more difficult to play to from the fairway from the Red direction. We were fascinated by how the greens played the 2nd day (Red) remembering how they played the from the Black direction on the previous day. The course was in very good condition and the turf was fantastic; fast and firm. Tom, you've done a great job designing the course and I believe the course is being maintained as planned. We look forward to our next visit to Forest Dunes.

[Eric_Terhorst]

In 3 visits and 7 total plays on the two courses, I've always found 2 Red/16 Black to be the most frustrating. There's no problem issue if the pin is on the right/front of the green, but that left/back plateau is a bit too small and a bit too high for my taste. In subsequent plays, 6 Red/12 Black has moved up right next to it because it's just a bit too shallow/narrow given the typical firmness of the greens. I'm also not a fan of the left side of the green on 6 Black because again, it's too shallow and too tough to get pin high right to have a relatively easy putt. But I like it as the back half of the 12th green on the Red because you should be able to hit your pitch straight enough to leave the straight putt from the front of the green.


I also think that 5 Red/13 Black is one of the better greens on the course but the issue with it is that although it's deep from both directions, you're almost always playing a long shot into it. And because almost the whole thing is convex, it's very tough to hold.


I have no complaints about the 18th green. Many do their best work early in a process...before they start over-thinking things (not that I'm accusing you of that here!). In fact, I find 9 and 18 to be about the two least-questionable greens on the course, if not my favorites.

Brett, you are not alone in questioning 2R/16B and 6B/12B. 


I was unsure about 2R/16B at first, but have come to find it very playable and fun.  If I miss the green (often), I found I can chip to any pin with a shot in the air or on the ground, with a varied degree of risk depending on where the pin is.  But I've chipped it close many times and holed at least one for birdie that I recall.


On 6B when the pin is up on the left plateau, I found it's foolhardy to approach it directly, you have to hit it left of the pin, where there's a flattish spot that is more receptive.  You might be off the green, but it's a straightforward putt from there, and better than being long or short.  Also note 6B often plays downwind in the summer, and even those of us with modest length can be right in front in two.


A low-handicap friend of mine on his first visit summarized 6B/12B green with a comment that "It has a short par 5 and a short par 4 playing into it, and the green seems right."  I agree.


You've hit on one of the issues I have with 13B/5R.  The par 3 13th is a 200+ yd uphill shot playing into a green that you can't see and that slopes decidedly away from you, and the green has a lot of roly-poly contours and the convexity you mentioned.  Getting the ball on or near the green, with a reasonable crack at an up-n-down is a matter of luck, not skill or precision. Coming at it from the Red direction, at least you can see the green, but I agree it's difficult to hold with a long approach, typical for most of us.  One redeeming feature about 5R, when the pin is way back left, there's a small backstop that you can use in fun ways to get your third shot close.


The green at #9, despite serving 2 holes, has only one approach angle that makes sense for me, from the left side.    Then the front greenside bunker gathers rolling balls like a black hole, and the green slopes off to the left on the left side, so there's a very small slot to roll a ball on.  These are a 400 yd+ par 4 and a 575yd par 5 that often play downwind in the summer.  Recently I was playing with a guest who was seeing the par 5 for the 2nd or 3rd time and without any comment from me as we were standing on the par 5 9R tee, he said "this is a really severe green for this hole." 


On the other hand I watched a high-school kid play 9B, and all he did was fearlessly hit a mid-iron sky high and land it softly on the green, presto.  He 3-putted though.


Tom,
I think the green at 18B works great for the short par 4, but I have had some frustrating moments on 18R--which again is an uphill shot to a complex target that you can't see.  It and 13B share a feature at the front of the green I call an "ice cream scoop" because they are partial false fronts remind me of the concave shape you get when you dig in a scoop on a brand new package of ice cream.  They repel balls away from your intended line, or if you're putting or chipping towards them, they bring out a dread fear of watching the ball roll past the hole and off the green.   I have learned to play away from that feature of 18R but can't always accomplish what I want.  However, after many plays I finally birdied 18R, so my opinion of it has improved measurably 

[Mike Schott]

It’s almost more fun to miss the greens and play a cool recovery shot. The options for that are endless. And considering my game, I had plenty of opportunities.

[Brett Meyer]

On 6B when the pin is up on the left plateau, I found it's foolhardy to approach it directly, you have to hit it left of the pin, where there's a flattish spot that is more receptive.  You might be off the green, but it's a straightforward putt from there, and better than being long or short.  Also note 6B often plays downwind in the summer, and even those of us with modest length can be right in front in two.

A low-handicap friend of mine on his first visit summarized 6B/12B green with a comment that "It has a short par 5 and a short par 4 playing into it, and the green seems right."  I agree.

This seems reasonable. I've never thought about missing 6B left for a left pin although I think I'd be concerned about running into the junk if I was a little inaccurate or off with the distance control. I think that there's a little more room on the right than on the left and while it may be difficult to get pin high, it's not too hard to play to somewhere where you still have a decent shot. Or you can just putt up the slope. Like your friend said, it's a short par 5 and that counts in its favor.

[/size]

The green at #9, despite serving 2 holes, has only one approach angle that makes sense for me, from the left side.    Then the front greenside bunker gathers rolling balls like a black hole, and the green slopes off to the left on the left side, so there's a very small slot to roll a ball on.  These are a 400 yd+ par 4 and a 575yd par 5 that often play downwind in the summer.  Recently I was playing with a guest who was seeing the par 5 for the 2nd or 3rd time and without any comment from me as we were standing on the par 5 9R tee, he said "this is a really severe green for this hole." 


On the other hand I watched a high-school kid play 9B, and all he did was fearlessly hit a mid-iron sky high and land it softly on the green, presto.  He 3-putted though.

I've never had an issue with that greenside bunker but that's because unless I've got a short shot, I'm playing to the front left of the green. Maybe I haven't hit the right (wrong?) kind of shot to notice how much the bunker is an issue, but the area short-left of the green is simple and if I try to run a shot on and it misses there, that's ok. I can't land my mid-iron on the green on 9B like aforementioned high school kid but I have sent one tumbling from the left rough that just carried the bunker short-left and rolled up to the front-left of the green.


I like 9R a lot because unless you can get near the green, you have to carry the cross bunkers but be careful not to miss left and go in the one left of 9B fairway. You can layup right, but that brings your favorite bunker much more into play.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'm a bit loopy. Played The Loop last summer to complete my mobius (TOC Reverse, Silvies Ranch and the Loop).On the first two I knew where I was, but at Roscommon was constantly a bit disoriented, not recognizing features until I looked back, never quite feeling comfortable with distance. Of the three The Loop is far and way the best replay destination.


With my low-ball-flight game I ended up by underclubbing 3-4 clubs on most shots. Extremely fun time, wish I had more than the two plays, once each way. Appears to be wide and wide open, but that helps with the deception. Would be interesting using match play with winner deciding next tee, not as much distance, but by angle.

Didn't play the short course and found the difference between the loops and Forest Dunes (Weiskopf) really offputting. Would skip the original course in future trips if I live closer and considered travel normal.

[Josh Tarble]

I visited Forest Dunes and the loop last summer and found it to be one of the most interesting and creative examples of golf course architecture that I had seen in a long time. I think it's a really difficult idea to execute that Tom made look really simple.

I've been thinking back on this comment and the course for a few days and think this really sums up the Loop.  I almost think that it was executed so well, that maybe some people aren't giving it quite the credit it deserves because it came off so well. 


I kind of feel like 5B/13R and 9B/9R really exemplifies that too.  It seems like they nearly come in at the same direction.  The green works well for both of them, but I can't imagine how difficult it was to not come in nearly opposite on every hole. 


For some examples of holes I liked both directions:
4B/14R,  5B/13R, 7B/11R!, 12B/6R


Some that I loved from one direction and not the other :
6B (loved)/12R (didn't love but that may change with more plays)
13B (didn't love)/6R (loved it)


And the only hole/green I didn't care for either way was 18.  I don't think either hole is necessarily bad, I just am not sure the best way to approach that green from either direction. 

[Josh Tarble]

Didn't play the short course and found the difference between the loops and Forest Dunes (Weiskopf) really offputting. Would skip the original course in future trips if I live closer and considered travel normal.

I did not find it off-putting, but I wouldn't recommend more than an 8-2 split on the Loop vs. Dunes.  It's not that the original is bad as much as the Loop is deserving of so many plays.  I feel you can find 10,000 courses like the original, but I'm not sure there's another course in America like the Loop. 


Also as mentioned above, the turf and conditioning on the Loop was amazing.  Nothing like the thud of a ball on a super firm course with fescue turf.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Didn't play the short course and found the difference between the loops and Forest Dunes (Weiskopf) really offputting. Would skip the original course in future trips if I live closer and considered travel normal.

I don't understand that comment at all. Isn't it nice that the same resort offers two different styles of golf?

[Pete_Pittock]

   To explain myself. I live in Oregon and prefer links (style) golf. I have travelled by car to Michigan to play golf a number of times, and had never considered playing Forest Dunes during those trips (I did go out of the way to play Black Lake).  With The Loop opening, my golf wanderlust took me there and I scheduled two rounds at The Loop and one the Weiskopf course. The two Loop loops were very fun, but on Forest Dunes had multiple mud balls and a slog of a round. The course seemed to have a humidity of its own.
   I don't have a problem with a resort having two different style courses, it can dr[/size]aw from two different clientele lists. Forest Dunes has proved to be a success and multiple courses increase the stay on property time. When I travel to play golf I am looking for something different than what is usually available to my locale (on this trip I also played Links of North Dakota, the newer course at Arcadia Bluffs, Stoatin Brae and Sand Valley).  Now that I have played the Weiskopf at Forest Dunes, it doesn't meet my criteria for spending future dollars  while the routings of The Loop meets that bar.
[/size]  I someone else wants to split their Forest Dunes experience 3-3-4. or even 1-1-8 that's okay with me, but if I had my future trips it would be 5-5-0.

[Steve Lang]

   Peter,
You don't have to explain yourself, as a long time domestic and international golf traveller, you simply have a sophisticated if not discriminating palate.  Time and space may be limitless, but physical reality hits hard.


When we played the Red Loop last year, did you like it more than say, Wolf Point a couple years ago or the Fifth Major venues at Dismal River when you had less low ball game? 


I've played both the Weiskopf and Loop courses every year since they opened and being only 45 min away, just go for one Loop and one Dunes play at minimum each year.  Also try to take in Weiskopf's Cedar River at Shanty Creek, which you definitely wouldn't like either!


Great to have Tom D's Loops close by and just hope it never goes NLE like my old home course Black Forest or old TC fav Highpointe... life is good near the 45th parallel in Michigan.  I don't dislike any Black or Red Loop holes, just leaving the property. 

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