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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Impossible Putts
« on: July 26, 2021, 11:02:03 PM »
I played a course for the first time today. On one hole, a very short uphill par 4, I hit a driver that bounced up to the middle of the green. As it turned out, the hole was cut on a lower front tier. The putt I had, from maybe 40 feet, was impossible to get within 10 feet (other than hitting the cup). I could putt 10 feet hole-high left (a gradual downslope), or I could go towards the hole and a minimum of 10 feet past with perfect speed (up a mound and then down a steeper slope).


Obviously if I played that hole location again, I would know to stay short of it. But still, I had mixed feelings. I've played holes that might leave one an impossible putt from some particular location...but probably not from the dead center of the green. It felt, for lack of a better word, unfair—yet I know that alone doesn't make it bad.


Thoughts?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2021, 02:05:38 AM »
I know you’ll get some people that say “then hit it to another part of the green” but this could be for one of two reasons other than design: The greenkeeper has put the pin too near the bottom of a downslope in a place that was never meant to be pinned; or the greens are being run much faster than the designer ever intended.


If neither of those things, then it’s on the designer. Personally I don’t like it. Ten feet is too far away after one perfect putt.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2021, 02:06:41 AM »



My immediate instinct is that what you describe would be easier to justify or accept for a drive-and-pitch hole than for one that is meant to be driveable.


Punishing an imprecise wedge as severely as you describe makes more sense to me than that consequence awaiting a drive onto the centre of the green.


When was the course built? May it originally have been a drive-and-pitch hole that modern technology has made reachable?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2021, 03:30:47 AM »
Not sure that players have a divine right to always expect to 2-putt or 1-putt. Sometimes you have to take the medicine.
atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2021, 03:39:09 AM »
Scott

I'm not sure I'd make the distinction but if I did I think I'd have it the other way round with it being more acceptable on a risk and reward short driveable par 4. The reward isn't based on just hitting the green but being in the right position. Think of it as a bunker where the player is short sided. It's the same kind of penalty for being in the wrong place, or the ultimate short grass hazard if you like.

Personally I think it's all good.

Niall

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2021, 07:42:23 AM »
Doesn't seem that it was unreasonable to expect an expert player to make a 4 under normal weather conditions.

Do better next time.



Next.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2021, 07:43:30 AM »
And for the record, you just complained that you had an approximately 10' uphill birdie putt.

What's the problem, again?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2021, 08:51:08 AM »
Not sure that players have a divine right to always expect to 2-putt or 1-putt. Sometimes you have to take the medicine.
atb


+1
Especially given that the green was reached in one under regulation.
Evidently, on that day, with that pin, the play was something short of the green, or at least the pin.


One of my favorite holes in golf is very short par 4, where if the pin is on the front, or even the middle, the best play is long, or simply past the hole with the approach or tee shot. You will not get the putt close from the front fringe, but so many try to get cute with their approach and end up making 5.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2021, 09:04:56 AM »
Not sure that players have a divine right to always expect to 2-putt or 1-putt. Sometimes you have to take the medicine.
atb


+1
Especially given that the green was reached in one under regulation.
Evidently, on that day, with that pin, the play was something short of the green, or at least the pin.


One of my favorite holes in golf is very short par 4, where if the pin is on the front, or even the middle, the best play is long, or simply past the hole with the approach or tee shot. You will not get the putt close from the front fringe, but so many try to get cute with their approach and end up making 5.


I'm sure somewhere some DECADE guy is cringing at this.

If you want to be average, by all means, play the averages.

Of course, that DOES pay rather well.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2021, 09:35:25 AM »
Question… the ten foot putt you had for par. I’d imagine somebody had it for birdie. I’d guess they loved the pin.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2021, 09:49:07 AM »
I sorta like the idea of a drivable par 4/reachable par 5 with a green that requires thoughtful positioning in order to ensure a straightforward 2-putt. Seems like a decent way to give the thoughtful player with average swing speed a fighting chance.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2021, 10:00:12 AM »
Should a new or expanded definition of recovery shot be used?
Call it the "out of position recovery putt"?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2021, 10:28:19 AM »
Folks, you can take this too far. From the middle of the green, 10’ is too far away for the best putt you can muster.


Bad pin position at the foot of a mound.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2021, 11:00:53 AM »
Folks, you can take this too far. From the middle of the green, 10’ is too far away for the best putt you can muster.


Bad pin position at the foot of a mound.


Must have missed the "middle of the green" as the de jure preferred position of an approach shot. Where can I read this list of entitlements based on ball position?

Who is the "you" here? Best putt I can muster? 2000 Tiger?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2021, 11:09:14 AM »
Folks, you can take this too far. From the middle of the green, 10’ is too far away for the best putt you can muster.


Bad pin position at the foot of a mound.


Must have missed the "middle of the green" as the de jure preferred position of an approach shot. Where can I read this list of entitlements based on ball position?

Who is the "you" here? Best putt I can muster? 2000 Tiger?


Carry on, Kyle. You know best.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2021, 11:21:09 AM »
I recall playing Redlands Mesa in Colorado and Engh certainly builds some wild greens.  Don't remember the exact hole but it was on the front 9 where I hit my approach for a GIR.  However I was so far out of position I recall it was a challenge just to 3 putt from where I was, which I did with a 10 footer to "save" the bogey.

Only other hole that comes to mind is Pasa 16, which if you're above the hole on the wrong tier its game over!

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2021, 11:26:53 AM »
Folks, you can take this too far. From the middle of the green, 10’ is too far away for the best putt you can muster.


Bad pin position at the foot of a mound.


Must have missed the "middle of the green" as the de jure preferred position of an approach shot. Where can I read this list of entitlements based on ball position?

Who is the "you" here? Best putt I can muster? 2000 Tiger?


Carry on, Kyle. You know best.


If one player hits the hole and makes it, the point is moot, no?

Again, he's complaining about having a ten footer for birdie based strictly on CONTEXT. It seems the golf course is doing well to *checks math* defend itself against an EAGLE.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2021, 11:45:48 AM »
I can think of two holes off the top of my head, both short par 5s, where a pin may be set such that a good second that reaches the green can leave an impossible putt and a very difficult two putt.  I'm thinking of the fourth at Lost Dunes and the 17th at Kingsley.  Both are gettable in two, and both, if not reached in two, will leave a short pitch.  If approaching the green with a short pitch, they play like traditional par 5s, and you should be able to pitch your ball to a position from which you can easily two putt.  I seem to recall Tom saying that with the fourth at Lost Dunes, maybe the conventional idea of par (# of strokes required to reach the green plus 2 putts) shouldn't apply.  Why can't a par 5 be two shots to reach plus an expected 3 putts? 


On Kingsley's 17th, if you're in the middle of the green with a front pin, if you putt at the hole, you may not be able to keep the putt on the green, and you'll end up 30 yards down the slope.  So you need to find another way to get the ball in the hole in two or three shots.  There are plenty of places at Kingsley where a shot played to the wrong position means taking your medicine and using an extra shot to get the ball in the hole.  The pin location isn't a secret.  No reason that, to a particular pin, on the green in the green in the wrong spot can't be "out of position".

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 11:48:42 AM »
My answer is obviously biased towards the public courses I was usually tasked with designing, but even when I talked with Tour pros or low handicap players, they never thought an unmakeable putt was a good thing.  For that matter, course managers, concerned with the pace of play really Blanche at suggesting those kinds of wild contours.  Supers usually don't like them either, since steep slopes tend to dry out faster, and the transition area between flattish and steepish can be hard to mow well.


Really, outside of the 1500 participants here, who seem split about 50-50, I have rarely heard someone advocate for a green of impossible putts.  Outside this site, the percentage that would favor even the occasional impossible putt is probably less than 2%.  That said, it is often possible to end up with one from somewhere to somewhere else on a green even if the gca didn't intend it, which is why most gca's (I think) have tended to make nearly all of the interior of most greens under 3% (i.e. reasonably puttable) knowing that a few areas tend to end up more difficult by construction accident or change from the plans. (Some can end up too flat with continuous dragging before seeding, too)


In the case cited in the OP by Matt, while I never did it, many gca's (usually associated with Tour pros) advocate for the lower tier of a 2 tier green to actually have a low ridge on the front to prevent "de-greening" from the upper tier.  Unless the hole is so far uphill you can't see the green and/or the approach area so steep that de-greened putts (or high spin approaches) might run or backup down the hill to many yards in front of the green, I prefer to simply flatten the front to an under 2% slope to minimize those chances.


BTW, I recall reading on this site many years ago, that any putt coming over a 1-2 foot rise from above has a minimum run out of 14 feet.  Usually, a super will keep pins at least 10 feet from the top side of a stair step rise in the green, but sometimes they need to set it within 10 feet on the lower level just to spread out wear.  Thus, even the most delicate putt from above will run at least 4 feet past the hole, probably more.  I forget who or when that was posted, but it was one of the more useful facts I have gained in years on this site.


I understand the objection to NOT having impossible putts for those who don't mind them here - If you design to eliminate them, green contours get pretty bland, although, for high play courses, like it or not, that is probably the most practical way to go, or at least, have some of those cup areas under 3% in each area of the green.  And for budget courses, who just can't build endlessly large USGA or similar greens, limited green space doesn't reduce the number of pin locations required, explaining why so few public courses have fairly bland contours.


I know Tom Doak and I had a brief exchange on this in another thread, where he didn't think the wild contours punished average golfers all that much.  Maybe not, and in theory, green contours favor the creative golfer over distance, obviously. My thoughts ran to just how much the average golfer would miss a putt on steeply contoured hole locations, and how many times that would lead to a 3 putt....slowing play, and not giving much joy.  What is the over under of a C player making the comeback 10 footer?  According to Broadie, 20% chance of making it, and a 2% chance of 3 putting, so basically, guaranteeing 2 more puts or a bit less from 10 feet for an almost guaranteed 3 putt.  The actual percent made might depend, I think, on whether the initial 10 foot miss was caused by one big break away from the hole, and whether the cup area itself was reasonably flat in the last 3 feet around the hole.


Which reminds me, most golfers would prefer an architect design greens that give impossible putts to their opponent.....but never to them......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2021, 11:53:33 AM »
You could've played a flop shot and laid it right next to the hole. Why would you not avail yourself of that opportunity?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2021, 12:12:18 PM »
I find it interesting that:

Short-siding yourself in a bunker or deep rough, where getting it anywhere near the pin is basically impossible, meaning its very likely you'll need 3 stokes to hole it (1 on, with 2 putts) = Not a Problem.

But leaving your approach on the opposite side of the green,  likely even further away from the hole, with a remaining difficult two putt = Problem
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:14:13 PM by Kalen Braley »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2021, 12:14:33 PM »
Jeff, I take your point. A steady diet of holes that leave damn-near-impossible two-putts is too much. I would generally agree with the idea that a relatively straightforward two-putt should be feasible with good execution on most greens.


But I do think this is one of those situations where a lot of people might not like the idea in a vacuum, but where real-life reactions to real holes demonstrates that they'll accept it in context.


I have an old friend who used to say that a fairway should never be bunkered, because it should always be a safe place to hit the ball. He was anti-centerline hazard in theory. And yet, the hole he cited as his favorite in our home state was one with... centerline hazards.


Likewise, I can imagine a guy who thinks a relatively straightforward two-putt should be possible from most locations on most greens, but who also really likes Pebble Beach (where we watched Gary Woodland navigate a pretty tough two-putt with great success on the 71st hole of the last US Open) and Tobacco Road and plenty of other courses that aren't afraid to present near-impossible two putts.


And even my home course, with a pretty tame set of greens, often features damn-near-impossible two-putts from above the hole to aggressive pin positions. We never have a ton of those aggressive pins, but you might run into one or two per round. Some guys inevitably bitch about them. But on greens as subtle as ours, I personally really appreciate that a keen player has the opportunity to play for an uphill putt where a sloppy player might fail to realize the importance of doing so on a couple occasions in the course of a round. Maybe also worth noting: a ball that truly trickles over the edge of the downslope on the correct fall line will almost always stop within 3 feet or so, but the average player's inability to make that read and execute is usually revealed.


In fairness, 10 feet is a long way to run past the hole if there's really no way to stop it closer, and the middle of the green is a funky spot to call "out of position." But I don't know - Canterbury is a pretty great course, and I remember hitting the middle of the first green and having my caddie say "Don't worry sir. We're gonna figure out a way to make par from there." He was wrong. I hit a "good" first putt from above the hole that rolled 7 feet past and missed the comebacker. Is 7 feet too far? 4 feet? And to Kyle's point earlier... would the same Tiger Woods who rolled that ball on 9 green in the final round of the 2019 Masters to an inch or so have come away from the hole in question saying "It was impossible to keep the ball within 10 feet from the middle of the green"? What if it's not quite IMPOSSIBLE to keep it within 4 feet, but takes a REALLY perfectly judged putt that risks hanging up top to pull it off?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2021, 12:15:46 PM »
The crew put the pin there so that the hole wouldn't play too easy. A legitimate goal -- but not a particularly interesting or charming way to achieve it.

On the other hand: I played short to a front pin at Crystal Downs once. I was pleased with myself, until my little 8 iron uphill chip exploded in my hands and ran 10 feet passed -- leaving me the very downhill putt I was trying to avoid in the first place. I just tapped it, and it rolled down by the cup and for another 6 feet. The putt coming back for bogey was one of the most satisfying of my life!

« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:17:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2021, 12:25:16 PM »
One of my evaluation criteria for a golf course is how well defended the course is…


…from the middle of the green.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Impossible Putts
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2021, 12:28:02 PM »
Jeff, Kyle (and other folks),


You can have extremely wild contours and remove any putts that fail to stop within 10’ of the hole (unless the greenkeeper pins right at the bottom of a tier).


Don’t mix the discussions up. Slow down the greens. Have big enough run-outs.


Impossible putts does not equate to cool, wild contours or “fun” or “strategy”. Lack of them does not equal bland or straight forward or flat.