[Robert Giuffra]

Timber Point Golf Course is now a good public course along the south shore of Long Island in Suffolk County. I first found out about Timber Point playing in a Met PGA Jr. tournament there. The course is stunning.  Since then, I have sought to learn more about this course and what I found shocked me.
The course was originally a Charles Alison solo design on an old estate. Over time, the course has changed for the worse. What would have been a top 15 to 25 golf course in America, according to Daniel Wexler of Lost Links, has now become just a good public track.
Twelve of the course's original holes still exit on Timber Point in some recognizable form.  The most famous hole, the 5th on the Blue course, known as “Gibraltar,” is a long uphill par three that green slopes severely down towards the tee box. It is still one of the coolest holes on Long Island.  The next two holes also appear to be very similar to their originals, 6 on the Blue is a short par four running right next to the water. The fourth leading up to the par three fifth also looks very similar to its original design. Both the Blue and Red Courses each have 6 holes that track the originals.  The Red traverses the tree lined sandy part of the course, and the Blue skirts the water.
All of this begs the question. Can the great Timber Point course be restored? Of the six holes that are “lost,” three of them would require serious work as much of these holes' fairways are now on wetlands. I believe that a restoration of Timber Point is possible, but it would require millions of dollars, as much of the course's natural sand is now gone.  Because of Hurricane Sandy, a large sandbar near the course was destroyed.  The course also has a very serious drainage problem.  But, considering that many of the course's original features are still there, a restoration Project is possible. The course is owned by Suffolk County.  The restoration would have to be funded with private money, as was done at Harding Park in San Francisco.   The course would have to be closed for a year, which might not be popular with local golfers.   
I strongly urge you to play Timber Point when you next visit Long Island. It may not be Shinnecock or National, but it has the bones of a great course.  Hopefully, someday it will be restored. 

[Mike Sweeney]

I am a fan, and the topic has been covered in the past in the archives - pre-Sandy.


While Tom Doak convinced private developers to take St Patricks Ireland from 27 to 18 holes, it is a different conversation for a County to take 27 holes down to 18 holes, fund it, close it and such when it has huge natural exposure to storms.


The Suffolk County courses are nominally in good shape too, so I am guessing they are profitable as is. Playing West Sayville on Sunday as Timber Point was sold out, again!

[Joel_Stewart]

Timber Point has the potential to be the best public course on Long Island, better than Bethpage.


Apparently nobody on the County level plays golf, sees the potential or is willing to take it on.  Yes it would be a big project, they would need a private operator and would be a tough sell with the unions.


The course is booked with 99 percent not knowledgeable about the history or architecture. I'm not even sure the superintendent knows? I'd like to go back but its in such a sad state that its too depressing. 

[Mark McKeever]

I remember someone here used to have a side by side aerial of the original course vs. what is there today.  It was staggering, the place looked incredible.


Mark

[Tom_Doak]

As with Dornick Hills (which I am restoring now)  , I have offered publicly to restore Timber Point for free. Unfortunately, I think Mike Sweeney is right that they will never take me up on it.

[Joel_Stewart]

As with Dornick Hills (which I am restoring now)  , I have offered publicly to restore Timber Point for free. Unfortunately, I think Mike Sweeney is right that they will never take me up on it.

Have you penciled it out for the costs and budget?


That's very generous of you to volunteer. With Dornick Hills, East Potomac and Timber Point you'd be very busy.

[Tom_Doak]

As with Dornick Hills (which I am restoring now)  , I have offered publicly to restore Timber Point for free. Unfortunately, I think Mike Sweeney is right that they will never take me up on it.

Have you penciled it out for the costs and budget?


That's very generous of you to volunteer. With Dornick Hills, East Potomac and Timber Point you'd be very busy.

To clarify, I am offering my time for free in sorting things out, but I’m not putting up millions to do the reconstruction!


Timber Point would be pretty pricey, because the routing itself changed, and indeed they might have some wetlands issues with restoring the 11th that weren’t a problem originally.  I’d guess it would cost between $5 million and $10m, or possibly even more due to the red tape factor of county ownership.

[Anthony Gholz]

For the record:


Frank Pont and Mark Bourgeois reviewed the current course in 2013 and prepared a study and plan to restore the original Alison layout.  With Frank's permission and help I reproduced their plan in the book Colt & Alison in North America.  As discussed above there are a couple wetland issues that were not a problem in 1923/25.  Frank used new tees and the dogleg principle on two holes to cover that problem.  So by technicality the routing of all but half of two holes could be restored and the green sites are all there and usable.  The book also includes the original course layout and aerials with current and original routings overlaid.  By my standard for the book: "if a course had over 50% of its routing still in existence I would call it still a C&A course."  With 11-12 holes still playable from the original routing I said it still exists.  We can argue my low standards, but Timber Point is so good a site and Alison's original course so good that we should all be thankful 11-12 holes are still out there.  Any restoration would of course, need to blow away entire areas of trees, undergrowth, and ninety years of chemicals/foliation that have destroyed the sand based look of the original.  It would be a difficult permitting process even assuming the county's buy in.


Good luck to Tom and/or anyone who would need to be part of the team on such a process.
Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Any restoration would of course, need to blow away entire areas of trees, undergrowth, and ninety years of chemicals/foliation that have destroyed the sand based look of the original.  It would be a difficult permitting process even assuming the county's buy in.


Good luck to Tom and/or anyone who would need to be part of the team on such a process.

Anthony:


While I think the wetlands are a real issue, I have never worked on a restoration where clearing trees or underbrush or grass was a problem, because presumably we are restoring what the landscape once was.  Tree clearing can be a very political problem amongst club members - and at Sebonack it was part of the political process for a new course - but NGLA next door cut down pretty much every tree in property without any interference.

[Anthony Gholz]

Tom:


Regarding cleanup of trees and undergrowth.  You know how that's done at scale I only know what happens from smaller projects at Port Huron. ie one side of a sand ridge being cleared out.
 
[size=78%]What was found is that we really have four different kinds of sand on the course.  We do have one bunker "Big Bertha" that is what is left of original lake bottom sand ridge that has been open to the wind for 5000 [/size]years.  That bunker was almost 100 yards long when I was a kid and now is about 45 yards long.  Mother nature does not stop.  [size=78%] The sand found after 100 years of foliation is removed is no longer pure Lake Huron beach sand, but has so many contaminants thru it that it is a shade darker than the beach sand.  In addition we have [/size][size=78%]"waste" areas that were part of our main lake bottom sand ridge which were opened [/size][/size]back-up[/size][size=78%] after "only" fifty years or so.  They are a tan color with a very fine sand matching the texture but not color of "Big Bertha.".  We have, of course, contained bunkers  (many from Alison's day) at the greens with "USGA" specification sand, whatever that is.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]We then have the rough sand areas kind of like your summer camp experience in "Up north" Michigan which you can easily imagine.  Some of Alison's drawings show these areas used in the greens [/size][/size]designs.  Most have been domesticated so they're just like any other bunkers or they've been grassed over to keep the course "green."[size=78%]

[/size]The PGA Tour pros would go nuts with the four varieties of sand we have.  [size=78%]

[/size]I forgot we also have rocks as the glacier deposits from ages ago left 100 yards of sand and gravel when they melted.  We have always had a local rule for rock removal.[size=78%]

[/size]We should be happy we have 85% sand base and good drainage, but the rocks are a reminder that all is not perfect even in paradise.[size=78%]

[/size]Anthony[size=78%]

[/size]PS I apologize for my typing with the various size changes.  I have no idea how to stop that.[size=78%]

[Frank Pont]

I have offered publicly to restore Timber Point for free.

That makes two of us then.....

[Frank Pont]

Here is the plan I did in 2013 after visiting the site:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dvuwif78n51evpm/Timber%20Point%202%20A3.jpg?dl=0


https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgyz2mgbb3ax61h/Timber%20Point%202%20A3%20no%20aerial.jpg?dl=0


And here is the full presentation:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/yeeqtv9fvdm2amo/Timber%20Point%20Masterplan%20prez%201a.pdf?dl=0


 I would still really love to restore Timber Point and believe it could be done for less money than is mentioned here.


 Feel free to contact me if you have questions about the plan or think you could help the effort.....

[Robert Giuffra]

Here is the plan I did in 2013 after visiting the site:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dvuwif78n51evpm/Timber%20Point%202%20A3.jpg?dl=0


https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgyz2mgbb3ax61h/Timber%20Point%202%20A3%20no%20aerial.jpg?dl=0


And here is the full presentation:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/yeeqtv9fvdm2amo/Timber%20Point%20Masterplan%20prez%201a.pdf?dl=0


 I would still really love to restore Timber Point and believe it could be done for less money than is mentioned here.


 Feel free to contact me if you have questions about the plan or think you could help the effort.....

The presentation looks great. I love the addition of a six hole short course so the County feels like they are losing less golf course. Timber Point would become a mecca of public golf on Long Island.

[Mike Sweeney]

I remember someone here used to have a side by side aerial of the original course vs. what is there today.  It was staggering, the place looked incredible.


Mark

Here is Mark B's website and slide tool:


http://golfcoursehistories.com/Timber.html


and the 1930 arial:




and the 2012 aerial:



Easy fix:



Easy fix, I think:



Not so easy fix. While Fire Island is a few miles south to function as a "Barrier Island" to protect the mainland, this sea wall seems to have eroded a number of times (see Mark's side by side tool), and Sandy was a whole different story:



The building is off the golf course and is some sort of municipal facility. The post-war boom was definitely not kind to golf course architecture and municipal building architecture:

[jeffwarne]

Timber Point is a very good and very affordable golf course that serves its function very well.
Could it be great? Sure.
Do I wish it still existed in its original form? Sure
But it still has good bones and is fun to play.
I chuckle when I read others say they won't return etc.
My worry after seeing Bethpage would be that the local market would be priced out, replaced by more affluent players willing and able to pay much higher prices(see Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines)
I'm not sure Bethpage Black is a better course today than it was(actually I'm quite sure it's not), and certainly is far more pricey and in demand due to its stature as a US Open course. Not enjoyable to play at all unless you like really long, ball hunting sloggish rounds.
I'll take Timber Point(in its current form) over the Black anytime.


Based on what we've witnessed with municipally run renovations in recent years, a lot would have to go right for the course to end up better, without pricing out the county residents.
Maybe they'd get it right...

[Mike Sweeney]

I'll take Timber Point (in its current form) over the Black anytime.

Sadly, on a whole different level, I agree:




See Ryan Farrow's work - https://twitter.com/FarrowGolf/status/1128122102102388738

[Brian Finn]

I played Timber Point last week with my Dad.  Having grown up on LI, I always felt silly that I hadn't played it, and I am really glad we took the 45 minute drive East.  We played Red-Blue, and there were many solid holes throughout, highlighted by the stretch of two (Harbor) through eight (Sahara) on the Blue nine.  The Gibraltar 5th remains a truly outstanding hole, as many have mentioned.  Now that I think about it, the ninth hole (Home) on blue was actually pretty darn good too.  The greens were in excellent shape, if a little slow.  Fairways and tees were a little furry, but certainly not in bad condition. 

Like many here, I'd love to see it in its original form, but as it sits, Timber Point is a good golf course, especially for those who don't have access to the dozens of private clubs on LI.  It is an incredible value...my Dad and I paid $40 each (midweek) as non-residents.  While a restoration would be very cool to see, I think it is best that it remain an affordable public course. 

If there were a viable option to restore it and make more (or lose less) $, while also keeping Suffolk county resident rates close to where they are currently, that would be ideal.  I suppose they could get quite a high fee from non-residents to play a well-restored classic.  However, based on what we heard from the two guys we played with (who were both terrific playing partners), it is tough enough to get tee times on the county courses now, so a year or two shut down would be met with some resistance.  Fun to think about for those of us not directly impacted, but likely not feasible. 

[Phil Carlucci]

Like many here, I'd love to see it in its original form, but as it sits, Timber Point is a good golf course, especially for those who don't have access to the dozens of private clubs on LI.  It is an incredible value...my Dad and I paid $40 each (midweek) as non-residents.  While a restoration would be very cool to see, I think it is best that it remain an affordable public course. 

If there were a viable option to restore it and make more (or lose less) $, while also keeping Suffolk county resident rates close to where they are currently, that would be ideal.  I suppose they could get quite a high fee from non-residents to play a well-restored classic.  However, based on what we heard from the two guys we played with (who were both terrific playing partners), it is tough enough to get tee times on the county courses now, so a year or two shut down would be met with some resistance.  Fun to think about for those of us not directly impacted, but likely not feasible.

This Timber Point thread and others came to mind after The Fried Egg last week named Timber Point one of America's 16 great restoration opportunities.  Personally, I've had my doubts that the golfing public on Long Island has any appetite for such a project, let alone the County -- both relevant given the fact it's a muni, and a jam-packed one at that.

For what it's worth, I polled a local online group of 4,000+ avid Long Island golfers, from what I can tell a fair cross-section of public, club, young, middle-age, senior, etc. players.  The choices were keep TP as is, a solid muni at $50/round and hard-to-get tee times, or restore it to a great course at ~$100/round and reduced availability.  Two-thirds of those who responded said they prefer to keep Timber Point as is.

On a related note, when you're a Jets fan these days, Sunday at 1:00 is a great time for a twilight 18, so I went to Timber Point yesterday since it's been on my mind.  Admittedly, I've played a very tiny handful of LI clubs, but all of the publics, and I can say that there is no spot on any of them that makes you stop and stare quite like the Harbor and Gibraltar tees at Timber Point.  Some might argue that's all the more reason for a restoration, but to me it would be a shame if the people who make that place the centerpiece of their course rotation were to get squeezed out.

[Tom_Doak]

I appreciate the sentiment of the last two posts, but they ignore the possibility of raising the money to restore the course, BUT KEEPING IT A $40 GOLF COURSE. 


That’s what the Colorado Golf Association did for CommonGround, and it’s been no problem to implement.

[Joel_Stewart]

I appreciate the sentiment of the last two posts, but they ignore the possibility of raising the money to restore the course, BUT KEEPING IT A $40 GOLF COURSE. 


That’s what the Colorado Golf Association did for CommonGround, and it’s been no problem to implement.

Agree here.  There's quite a few public courses that have raised money privately to fund renovations including Bethpage.  I'm not sure if anyone has stepped up to take it to Nassau county?

[David Wuthrich]

Memorial Park in Houston where Tom worked his magic!

[Brian Finn]

I appreciate the sentiment of the last two posts, but they ignore the possibility of raising the money to restore the course, BUT KEEPING IT A $40 GOLF COURSE. 

That’s what the Colorado Golf Association did for CommonGround, and it’s been no problem to implement.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly did not ignore that possibility.  As I said, if there were a viable option to restore it and make more (or lose less) $, while also keeping Suffolk county resident rates close to where they are currently, that would be ideal.  Not being really familiar with the inner workings of the golf course industry or of municipal government, I have no idea how realistic it is, but selfishly, I would love to see the course restored. 

[Tom_Doak]

The real problem with restoring Timber Point (and Princes, and Shawnee) is that they jammed 27 holes onto it and they don’t want to give up the additional revenue from the extra nine.


I hate 27-hole designs.  They’re all about the revenue not the golf.

[John Foley]

A long long time ago Tommy N started a thread and did some work on what a Timber Point restoration could be. I've been diving through old threads and not luck. It was fantastic work.

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