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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2021, 02:35:31 AM »
If you look at Dai’s photo in reply 2, the 18th on the New is mown half and half so this is clearly a TV decision. Is there another reason why? Perhaps there’s something I’m overlooking.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2021, 03:05:29 AM »
If you look at Dai’s photo in reply 2, the 18th on the New is mown half and half so this is clearly a TV decision. Is there another reason why? Perhaps there’s something I’m overlooking.

Ally

Sunny Old has been checkerboarding for some time.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2021, 08:11:20 AM »
Sunningdale Old looks incredible! It's a special place and one of my favourites. That said, every time I look at photos, I think 'what could be'. The scale, ruggedness and aesthetic seems to have been lost, and it now resembles more of a Japanese garden than a heathland golf course. The property must be one of the best in golf, but that scale is hiding in the abundance of trees - and because the playing corridors have now shrunk, so have the bunkers and the greens to fit.


A look back at what it used to be for reference (courtesy of Simon Haines!):









Not of the Old, but a few from the New also :) Thanks Simon!












Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2021, 08:55:41 AM »








Sunningdale is high on my list of places that I would like to play.


Tim, thanks for posting the historical photos. The growth of the trees on the tenth hole is dramatic starting with the narrowing of the fairways to the loss of the vistas.


Bill

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2021, 09:21:26 AM »
Sunningdale Old looks incredible! It's a special place and one of my favourites. That said, every time I look at photos, I think 'what could be'. The scale, ruggedness and aesthetic seems to have been lost, and it now resembles more of a Japanese garden than a heathland golf course. The property must be one of the best in golf, but that scale is hiding in the abundance of trees - and because the playing corridors have now shrunk, so have the bunkers and the greens to fit.


If folks do a little research into how quickly trees, scrub, brush etc grows they'll likely be amazed. And their growth is compound too, so it keeps ever-expanding upon itself ... self seeder begets more self seeders and hey presto, there's a forest. The amount of work needed by man to intervene and halt or reverse the growth the considerable ... manpower, machines, time, cost etc etc.
Once upon a time however, the heathlands (and links, parklands etc) were roamed by domesticated grazing animals and through their constant nibbling away they kept the vegetation, trees, brush, scrub etc in check. Man also removed some timber but this was relatively small scale and was essentially for domestic purposes like firewood, furniture, fencing etc.
Such grazing etc doesn't occur much these days, in fact it hasn't done so in many areas of the UK for circa 100 yrs, and the consequence of this has been continuous and compound tree, scrub, brush etc growth.
This is one of the reasons why I've become quite passionate about courses being grazed by domestic animals. Yes there are some 'dirty shoe' type downsides, but there are considerable advantages too, and not just golfing ones. And the animals don't need to graze the same area of land all year round. If necessary they can be herded to certain parts of the property. Indeed these days the animals can (and do at some courses) have collars attached with sensors placed at strategic points on the property so they herd themselves away from key parts of the course.
atb

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2021, 01:32:18 PM »
...P.S.  If I was given a choice to play 36 at RSG or Sunningdale, don't think I'd be headed to the coast...[/size]

Heathen! ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2021, 01:38:41 PM »
If you look at Dai’s photo in reply 2, the 18th on the New is mown half and half so this is clearly a TV decision. Is there another reason why? Perhaps there’s something I’m overlooking.

Ally

Sunny Old has been checkerboarding for some time.

Ciao

Are golf clubs supposed to be bastions of common sense?

 ::)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2021, 04:15:11 AM »
If you look at Dai’s photo in reply 2, the 18th on the New is mown half and half so this is clearly a TV decision. Is there another reason why? Perhaps there’s something I’m overlooking.


I've never quite worked out why but Sunningdale seems to have quite different philosophies regarding the New and the Old. There has been a bit of tree removal on the Old, but basically they see it as a wooded course, whereas the New has been returned, in quite large measure, to open heath. I suspect this difference is driving the mowing styles too.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2021, 04:47:17 AM »
Adam, I believe Colt was at least "fully aware" of the introduction of trees to the Old?  I'm sure Paul Turner referred to this on an old thread?


I was certainly appreciative of them last Thursday as the temp hit 32 degrees!
Let's make GCA grate again!

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2021, 06:09:44 AM »
Adam, I believe Colt was at least "fully aware" of the introduction of trees to the Old?  I'm sure Paul Turner referred to this on an old thread?


I was certainly appreciative of them last Thursday as the temp hit 32 degrees!


Tony, I'm not sure to what extent trees were 'introduced' to Sunningdale Old. When heath stops being grazed, trees grow. It's really as simple as that.


Which isn't to say there wasn't planting. I don't know the precise situation.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2021, 10:20:05 AM »
Adam: 


I hope your new book covers the what is Colt and what is Park and what is ...


And original routings vs today etc.  All has been covered on different threads previously, but would be great bto have it all in one place.  I hope S has given you full access to their records.  BTW do they have Colt drawings? or Park's?  Did Park do drawings? 


For the record this week's Open was the first time since Shell's WWoG that I saw S in color and well covered.  I'm keeping a tape of it until something better comes along.


Anthony

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2021, 11:28:06 AM »
Put me down in the camp that feels the diamond cut fairway mowing is excessive and unnecessary. Sunningdale is a glorious old heathland course. Presenting it in the manner we expect to see a bland TPC layout only detracts IMO.




No doubt it takes skill and effort to mow grass like this, but it strike me as analogous to applying an excessive amount of make up to a face that doesn't need it, and is better off without it.


  What's always interesting to me is that  nearly EVERY course cross cut their fairways up until 10-15 years ago. Even Oakmont. until the last few years. Pine Valley still mows alternate directions, as does Cypress Point, Peachtree, Pasatiempo, Merion. Mowing turf a different direction each cut is ideal. The newest look is mowing the turf in all 1 direction, tee to green in most cases.
  Until the mid 90's nearly EVERY club mowed up & back, because that's what the mowers would dictate. My pet peeve is the moderate course (Not the C&C, Doak, Hanse, Devries type courses) that mow down & back that do not have the grassing lines to promote the look. Fairways mowed with the up & back should have proper width, not contoured like so many courses produces in the 80-90's.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Gib_Papazian

Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2021, 02:58:42 PM »
Stop it.


Stop it immediately.


Let me make sure I am understanding this . . . . . but maybe I was not watching the same telecast. 


The heather is brilliantly in bloom, the bunker arrangements are a lyrical poem of sensual art, Miguel Jimenez and Darren Clarke are tottering down the fairway in contention, doubtless discussing their wine cellars, fast cars and faster women  - and we are having a serious discussion about criss-crossing mowing patterns?


At SUNNINGDALE OLD? ??? ??


In The Senior Open?


That is like criticizing Kate Hepburn's underbloomers in *Pat and Mike.


It may be the subject of architecture has a finite amount of subjects and we're plummeting down the rabbit hole of irrelevant minutiae.


*For those not dumb enough to have gone to film school, Pat and Mike is a 1952 golf movie, starring the sexiest woman who ever lived and Spencer Tracy . . . . written by Ruth Gordon, also of Harold and Maude fame.


 














 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 05:13:19 PM by Gib Papazian »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2021, 03:04:49 PM »
Gib,

I feel compelled to actually agree with you on this one!  ;D

Its not like the course has been Rees-ified with sugar bowl bunkers and containment mounds galore.. The criticism feels a bit like sending off a perfectly good car to the wreckers cause it has a dead battery.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 03:07:16 PM by Kalen Braley »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2021, 03:11:17 PM »
Gib, agree on the golf course and major props for a Harold And Maude reference. But KH as sexiest woman ever? She's not even close to being the sexiest Hepburn. And even AH is behind Garbo and Deneuve.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2021, 03:15:28 PM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.


Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2021, 03:21:19 PM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.
Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.
+1
Well said Ally.
Atb

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2021, 04:46:38 PM »
Are there any courses that have more cross bunkers than the Old Course at Sunny?

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2021, 05:10:39 PM »
Stop it.


Stop it immediately.


Let me make sure I am understanding this . . . . . but maybe I was not watching the same telecast. 


The heather is brilliantly in bloom, the bunkers are a lyrical poem of sensual art, Miguel Jimenez and Darren Clarke are tottering down the fairway in contention, doubtless discussing their wine cellars, fast cars and faster women  - and we are having a serious discussion about criss-crossing mowing patterns?


At SUNNINGDALE OLD? ??? ??


In The Senior Open?


That is like criticizing Kate Hepburn's underbloomers in *Pat and Mike.


It may be the subject of architecture has a finite amount of subjects and we're plummeting down the rabbit hole of irrelevant minutiae.


*For those not dumb enough to have gone to film school, Pat and Mike is a 1952 golf movie, starring the sexiest woman who ever lived and Spencer Tracy . . . . written by Ruth Gordon, also of Harold and Maude fame.


 








 


Love Kate but.....maybe you had to be there.  One thing her sex appeal was not - flashy accessorising. 
The bling at Sunny Old is in your face. Distracts from the true beauty.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2021, 07:59:34 PM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.


Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.

Amen to that!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2021, 02:32:50 AM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.


Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.

Amen to that!

OK, but the course is great, yes? While I agree aesthetics are important to a degree, it's all too easy to judge a course on how it looks rather than how it plays. The current drone footage fad encourages this PoV.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:34:39 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2021, 03:38:45 AM »
Course preparation for photographic purposes rather than course preparation for playability has been going on for a few decades now and unfortunately the trend has been spreading.
atb


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2021, 05:13:01 AM »
Course preparation for photographic purposes rather than course preparation for playability has been going on for a few decades now and unfortunately the trend has been spreading.
atb


As commentators above have intimated cross-hatching is so ....over.  Like big hair, shoulder pads and mullets  8)


The look now is naturalism.  Sad that the current trustees of one of the revolutionary inland courses, which moved us on from square greens and artificial hazards have so little appreciation for what they have.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2021, 05:30:40 AM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.


Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.

Amen to that!

OK, but the course is great, yes? While I agree aesthetics are important to a degree, it's all too easy to judge a course on how it looks rather than how it plays. The current drone footage fad encourages this PoV.

Ciao


Aesthetics play a much bigger part than even most on here would realise; and more than most architects would admit.


Whether it’s scale, hiding transitions, ensuring top lines / back lines look cool, bunker positioning in to natural mounds rather than “strategically” placed etc… etc…


If all courses were designed with the same look, people would have a much harder task in deciding what was “great” and what wasn’t.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Doesn't Sunningdale Look Great?
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2021, 05:53:04 AM »
I don’t agree. I hate busyness on a golf course. I hate furniture on a golf course.


Cross-hatching is about as busy as it gets. Presentation is a part of architecture.

Amen to that!

OK, but the course is great, yes? While I agree aesthetics are important to a degree, it's all too easy to judge a course on how it looks rather than how it plays. The current drone footage fad encourages this PoV.

Ciao


Aesthetics play a much bigger part than even most on here would realise; and more than most architects would admit.


Whether it’s scale, hiding transitions, ensuring top lines / back lines look cool, bunker positioning in to natural mounds rather than “strategically” placed etc… etc…


If all courses were designed with the same look, people would have a much harder task in deciding what was “great” and what wasn’t.


Ally


Your point is taken. I like what I consider to be well presented courses as much as the next guy. I am not sure folks are getting my point. Sunny Old is great. You could strip all the heather and its still great. If cut style and heather determine its greatness...something is badly amiss with those offering opinions. The cut style is irritating and I don't understand it, but it doesn't effect playing conditions. These aesthetics are serious eye candy issues.  How a course plays is more important imo...and yes, I am aware that opinion varies widely on this issue as well. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing