[Mark Smolens]

I prefer wooden, and without paint, tho for par 3s I like the little plastic ones they have in the pro shop at Point O Woods. . .

[James Brown]

I have a couple of ways. 


1) I always defer to others on choosing tees if am joining a group and this gives me a lot of variety.  Got me onto the back tees at Torrey and at Bethpage Black and I would have never chosen those tees on my own. 


2) When playing by myself or on vacation or destination golf I always play from the 6400-6600 tees if I can.  Those are the funnest tee range for me in most conditions and I will move up a box from there if it’s raining or really cold or super wet. 


Playing from tees that I feel like are too far back almost always ruins the experience for “fun” golf.  And for tournament play, I usually suffer a bit from playing from longer tees than usual for me, but I can live with that because it’s true for much of the field - except the guys who are generally winning those things! 

[Ryan Van Culin]

I have always used the 5-iron times 36 calculation ever since I started golfing.


Tom brings up a great point, though. In my area of the Blue Ridge Mountains, the ball goes about 10% farther than when visiting my in-laws in NJ. Worth considering, though I rarely do, haha.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom


Interesting. So from that does it follow that "playing the course the way the architect intended" is really a lost cause, and that better design is for the course to be playable and engaging for different calibre of players playing from the same tees ? In other words having numerous tees so that all level of players can hit a notional landing area is the wrong way round ?


Niall

Yes, as far as I am concerned.  I almost objected to that phrase in the earlier post, because it assumes architects are designing approaches for a certain club, and I, for one, do not. 


To me, the realist view is that approaches may come from anywhere and may require someone to hit a 4-wood, and that person should have some chance to wind up in a place where they can hole out in two more strokes (not necessarily putts).


I believe I found a quote last year from Donald Ross to the same point.

[Thomas Dai]

5-irons distances ....... a modern 5-iron has circa 4*-8* less loft than one from a few decades ago.
But then again, golfers are better athletes these days.
sic
atb

[Sean_A]

Tom

Interesting. So from that does it follow that "playing the course the way the architect intended" is really a lost cause, and that better design is for the course to be playable and engaging for different calibre of players playing from the same tees ? In other words having numerous tees so that all level of players can hit a notional landing area is the wrong way round ?

Niall

I wouldn't say same set of tees, but generally speaking not a massive difference between a few tees unless a natural feature requires much shorter tees. Golf is in the main about recovery shots so a lot more consideration for this should be a priority.

For me, short and sweet is good. I don't want my game interrupted by long walks unless I am greatly rewarded. Hell, I don't mind playing a back tee if its near the previous green and "reasonable". But if I am walking, I want it to be forward!

Ciao

[Jason Thurman]

The total yardage of a golf course is so abstract a measure of the experience that it's almost totally useless.


If you're worried about playing tees that are too long or too short, look at the yardages of the actual holes you'll be playing. If you don't care enough to do that, scan for the longest par 3 or 4. If that number seems too long, move up.


Re: Matt Cohn's experience above, amateurs and pros play courses that vary by 1,000 yards over the course of a year or season. Confining oneself to a range 20% that size doesn't make much sense.

This gets at what I keep thinking about. Part of a course's character and design intent is reflected in its length and difficulty level. Cape Arundel is quirky and funky and short. If you could somehow stretch it to 7800 yards, some of the quirky and funky features might seem ridiculous. But at 6000ish, it feels very much in proportion. A strong player can go low there, but it requires creativity and finesse to extract the desired score.


Compare that with an Erin Hills, where the course is bigger and brawnier. Scooting up a tee (or two or three or four) makes the course a little more manageable, and you can eventually scoot all the way up to a Cape Arundel-esque yardage. And it might be fun to shoot a better score from a not-so-difficult set of tees, but at some point aren't you starting to miss the designed character of the course? And does that matter if that character is monstrous and not particularly appealing? I mean, some courses are bastards. As someone who cares about architecture, is there a benefit to jumping in and meeting the bastard, even if it might be more fun to scooch up to a friendlier length? I think Hogan would've said yes, at least.


Most of us are crappy enough at this game to justify playing every course from within our comfort zone, and as a guy with a comfort zone between 6100 and 6500 yards, there's usually a set of tees that keeps me in it. But do I miss out on part of what makes different courses different when I don't stretch out of it?


I think the answer is probably yes, at least to some degree. And it goes both ways - it's not always about stretching beyond a comfortable length. Like, Clovernook was short enough that decent-player guests almost always wanted to play the back tees, added over many years, at 6500ish yards. But some of those tees were in spots that limited options or forced awkward angles. I always thought the blue tees at 6350ish revealed the course's character better. And there are some very short courses that a lot of guys dismiss as being "too easy," but it's not actually easier to play to one's handicap on them. As a ~10 handicap, do I really get to call a course "easy" if I shoot 77 to log my best score of the year, but only equal the same 13 differential that I posted when I shot 89 on a long and tough layout?

[Jason Thurman]

I chose the tee that matches my outfit the best.  Style beats form and function any day.
chris

Do you still have the yellow bucket hat? If so, come down a day and play the View with me. We might both break par from the 4500 tees... and we'll look very stylish while doing it.

[Charles Lund]

I consider the following:


1.  Social factors associated with whether I set up the game or got invited to play.
2.  Having a set of tees where on par threes I am not hitting hybrids and fairway metals only  and a set of par fours where I can realistically hit at least seven par fours in regulation with two good shots, using a range of irons, hybrids, and fairway metals.
3.  Whether green configurations and surrounds require high approach shots and whether there is an opening for a shot with a lower trajectory.
4.  Whether I am ok hitting second shots on par fours to areas around greens on courses with interesting green surrounds, such as on many courses around Pinehurst.
5. Whether there is good runout on drives or whether there is very little roll.
6.  What I know about how elevation and wind influences how certain holes play.


This usually means 5900 to 6400 yards.  I am fairly straight off the tee but have lost length but improved on accuracy in the last ten years.  The addition of hybrid or combo tees has been helpful in selecting tees.


Charles Lund

[Ira Fishman]

I consider the following:


1.  Social factors associated with whether I set up the game or got invited to play.
2.  Having a set of tees where on par threes I am not hitting hybrids and fairway metals only  and a set of par fours where I can realistically hit at least seven par fours in regulation with two good shots, using a range of irons, hybrids, and fairway metals.
3.  Whether green configurations and surrounds require a high approach shots and whether there is an opening for a shot with a lower trajectory.
4.  Whether I am ok hitting second shots on par fours to areas around greens on courses with interesting green surrounds, such as on many courses around Pinehurst.
5. Whether there is good runout on drives or whether there is very little roll.
6.  What I know about how elevation and wind influences how certain holes play.


This usually means 5900 to 6400 yards.  I am fairly straight off the tee but have lost length but improved on accuracy in the last ten years.  The addition of hybrid or combo tees has been helpful in selecting tees.


Charles Lund

This is spot on. I would add two factors:


1. If there many uphill approach shots that add a club or more.


2. If there are several longish forced carries.


Ira

[Jeff_Brauer]

Have told the story before, but was paired with Rees Jones at Pinehurst no. 2 back in 2006 (I was then 51) and he announced loud and proud that he was going forward to the white tees at about 6,000 yards.  I had always played at about 6800 until then, but with chiding went forward.  After hitting well into double digit greens that day, I was hooked on 6,300 and below. (Obviously, at any new to you course, you might not have a perfect option if using a 36 x 5 iron or similar method)


Anyone who says it doesn't matter if you hit greens in regulation (or designers who say providing yardages that allow that possibility isn't part of their thinking) is just nucking futz in my book.  Golf was a lot more fun after I moved forward, and more recently, have been looking at 200 yards either side of 6,000.  Thanks, Rees, for opening my eyes!

[Thomas Dai]

Mr TV Professional hits his Driver 300 yds.
Mr Hacker, Mr Ego and Mr Pride all hit their Drivers 200 yds.
Mr TV Professional usually plays a course that’s 7,500 yds.
Mr Hacker, Mr Ego and Mr Pride think they should be playing a long course.
To be playing a proportionally equivalent course to Mr TV Professional Mr Hacker, Mr Ego and Mr Pride should really be playing a 5,000 yd course.

Atb

[Lou_Duran]

You guys are thinking way too much.  And I thought that golf was meant to be fun.


If Sean was playing many modern American courses, he'd be playing the back tees if proximity to the previous green was really an objective.  I suppose that since you're going in the direction of the junior tees anyways, it doesn't really matter.  But why stop there?


My normal 5-iron carry in calm conditions is 170 yards.  Using the *36 hypothesis, I'd be playing a 6,120 yard course.  Be it my ego, pride, or whatever negative motive David can attribute to people who carry more than a pea shooter, I play a 6800 yard course most of the time, and typically have a wonderful time hitting nearly all of my clubs.  Using the upper end of the range offered by Mr. Cohen, *40, I guess I am "justified" for playing at 6800 yards, not that I much care what others think about this matter.  I can keep my end in a four ball walking the course comfortably in 3 hours, and my handicap is sufficiently low that it shouldn't bother anybody.  But it does, apparently.

[Sean_A]

You guys are thinking way too much.  And I thought that golf was meant to be fun.

If Sean was playing many modern American courses, he'd be playing the back tees if proximity to the previous green was really an objective.  I suppose that since you're going in the direction of the junior tees anyways, it doesn't really matter.  But why stop there?

My normal 5-iron carry in calm conditions is 170 yards.  Using the *36 hypothesis, I'd be playing a 6,120 yard course.  Be it my ego, pride, or whatever negative motive David can attribute to people who carry more than a pea shooter, I play a 6800 yard course most of the time, and typically have a wonderful time hitting nearly all of my clubs.  Using the upper end of the range offered by Mr. Cohen, *40, I guess I am "justified" for playing at 6800 yards, not that I much care what others think about this matter.  I can keep my end in a four ball walking the course comfortably in 3 hours, and my handicap is sufficiently low that it shouldn't bother anybody.  But it does, apparently.

The truth is if I was playing many American modern courses it would be in a cart and it is likely I would play these courses once. Luckily, there are few American modern courses which interest me. To me a decent walk is inherent to a good design. I recall playing the NC St course in Raleigh and driving past tees on nearly every hole. There was space to build holes between tees. It takes the idea of tees for playability way beyond the pale. That type of design is not something which interests me. Alhough, the holes themselves were pretty good.

Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

Generally, in the UK, I always like to play the boxes, or the tees that the average member would play. I'm not good enough to play from way back on most courses, and that's fine by me!


I remember a few times when I was visiting courses that were new to me, and the host would say that we should play from the back tees so that I can 'really see the course'. Is there any validity in this statement? Surely if you need to play a specific set of tees for the course to shine through, then it's not a world-beater? As others have mentioned, sometimes it's enjoyable to play different markers at courses that we play often to give a bit of variety, and the good course still holds up!

[Mark Pearce]

My 5 iron is my 170 yard club.  So I guess I carry it 155?  So that should but me just under 5600 yards.  That's nonsense for me.  Even Elie is 6300 and the idea that it's "too long" is laughable.  Also, at 6300, it's great fun, even with a 5 iron carry of 155 yards.  Or do people need to be hitting wedges in on every hole to have fun?

[Jason Topp]

I play from the tees my playing companions want to play from.  I think most of us do.


 A good design should provide interesting golf for the player who hits it 50 yards longer or 50 yards shorter than what some formula might suggest would be the typical drive distance. 

[Paul Jones]

Generally, in the UK, I always like to play the boxes, or the tees that the average member would play. I'm not good enough to play from way back on most courses, and that's fine by me!


I remember a few times when I was visiting courses that were new to me, and the host would say that we should play from the back tees so that I can 'really see the course'. Is there any validity in this statement? Surely if you need to play a specific set of tees for the course to shine through, then it's not a world-beater? As others have mentioned, sometimes it's enjoyable to play different markers at courses that we play often to give a bit of variety, and the good course still holds up!

Tim,


... 'really see the course' - I think that statement is terrible; however, I will walk back to some holes if the back tees are from a completely different angle.  Some times I will even hit an extra ball from back tee, most of time I wondering if I can reach the fairway :-)

[Gib_Papazian]

Tom Doak wrote: "To me, the realist view is that approaches may come from anywhere and may require someone to hit a 4-wood, and that person should have some chance to wind up in a place where they can hole out in two more strokes (not necessarily putts)."

Tom,

If you can explain to me where or how I can "hole out in two more strokes (not necessarily putts)" on #7 at Pac Dunes or #10 at Apache Stronghold, please show me "the place" - because no matter what club I hit, layup, go for the green, hit it to the right side or hit it over there instead, the result is always always a double-bogey at best . . . . . except when I make a 7.

The same can be said for #16 at Pac Dunes, where I finally threw up my hands and surrendered (took me 10 tries, miserably flunking your I.Q. test on that fucking nightmare "drivable par-4") . . . . I now putt it from down the fairway and try to get it on the front edge - but in match play, I'll gladly take bogey and walk straight to #17.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Golf Digest had Bubba Watson play a 6100 yard course in Arizona. The rating is 68.8 and the slope is 124. Naturally, Bubba picked the back tees, and he shot 62. And I thought to myself 'Hmm, did Bubba play great golf, or is a 6100 yard course just too easy for him?'

I also realized that I'll never be embarrassed to play from the 6100 yard tees, or look down my nose at a course that maxes out at 6100 yards. If I played well, I'd take about 18 more a strokes than Bubba Watson did to play the same course -- which seems remarkable to me when I think of *me* compared to a long bombing Masters champion!!

[Gib_Papazian]

Peter,


I look down my nose at people who insist on playing the Tips . . . . . . unless they are named Matt Cohn or Jeff Fortson.

[Sean_A]

I play from the tees my playing companions want to play from.  I think most of us do.

 A good design should provide interesting golf for the player who hits it 50 yards longer or 50 yards shorter than what some formula might suggest would be the typical drive distance.

I don't think design is the issue if a guy can't reach several par 4s in two because he chose back tees.

Ciao

[Joe_Tucholski]

At 73-yo and barely able to hit it 175 on an American-style setup, anything over 5500 yards is no fun. So That's what I try to play, 5200-5500.


I'm happy if the par fours aren't all 350-ish.  I like some under 300 and some around 400 instead.  Elie's 16 par fours come to mind.


I'm also good with par threes that require a driver, if I get to hit a short iron somewhere else.


Please limit the  500-plus-yard par fives though.

In all sincerity. Do you and your wife play the same tees?

I'll play hickories with my wife and she enjoys that we play the same tees (I play the furthest forward tees with the hickories).


I typically play the tees that the group I'm playing with hit from.  Currently in CO at 6500 feet so distances are a bit different.


Last round I played the 6041 tees with some older guys.  It was a bit shorter than I like but I did have way more birdies than usual.  While lots of birdies was fun the course really played as a par 69 instead of the par 72 on the card.  It also wasn't really that much fun hitting 60 degree wedge into almost every hole.


I made mention in another thread that the course I live on flipped the tee colors when there was a Monday event.  The red tees were the tips and the black tees were at the front.  I just looked at the card for my current home course and realized they changed the tee colors from the last time I lived here 15 years ago.  Basically the front tees were red but are now yellow.  The next set used to be yellow and are now white.  The old white are now green.  The back two tees didn't change blue and black.


I seriously think there is a stigma preventing some guys from playing the red tees.  Make them yellow and they'll swallow their pride...or maybe they can't remember that there isn't a red tee up front anymore.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The total yardage of a golf course is so abstract a measure of the experience that it's almost totally useless.

I agree completely with this.


The overall yardage is often simply a function of the number of par 5s and par 3s on a course. Many golden age courses in the U.K. have only one or two par 5s and maybe five par 3s. This often brings the total yardage down below 6000 yards on a course featuring multiple long par 4s. At 5700 yards Cavendish has six par 4s of over 400 yards - not the hallmark of a “short” course!


In the U.K. golfers rarely have any choice of the tees they play from. They will be advised which tees are to be in play that day.


If there is a choice I would prefer to select on a hole by hole basis. I rarely mark a card and in matchplay it doesn’t matter which tee is used on each hole as long as all players use the same one!

[Peter Sayegh]

A long time ago, mine was a very arbitrary decision. Plus/minus on par fours. The number was 3.5. Any tees that had 4 par fours over 410 yards was deemed too long. It served me well.
I think the five iron barometer suggested in this thread is very good.

P.S. I'll normally play whatever tees my hosts/friends/partners will enjoy.

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