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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2003, 01:53:23 PM »
Tiger:

Not having seen the 'old' 16th, I understand your concern about it.  However, the fact that you can now hit it long and left after they cleared out that area, I assume, has helped the hole tremendously.  First round, I hit a full, big-hooking, 3-wood over to the newly cleared fairway.  Made my par.  Second time, I tried to get cute and hit my driver.  Of course, I hooked the heck out of it and it still ended up in that new fairway.  Par again!

So now that the new fairway is there, I assume that you agree the hole is now a pretty awesome one like I do?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2003, 01:54:33 PM »
Paul - you're not going against me!  I called it 6-4 at best and said I'd be happy at 5-5.  I do believe that for many of the reasons redanman lists Pacific is a better golf course, but it's very, very close.  I've been trying to make that point every time the Bandon resort gets discussed here... as you know, for a long time there seemed to be this "Pacific Dunes is everything, Bandon Dunes isn't worth your time" sentiment on here which to me is ludicrous.

Glad to here I have a brother in assessment here.  Passing over the BD course to me is really silly.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2003, 01:59:49 PM »
Not speaking for "Tiger" here, but yes, that would seem to solve the summer wind issues on 16, Paul.  Just do try and imagine what Mr. Bernhardt said above... a world class par 3 is waiting to be made from the current 16 tee to a green site  below the shelf, cut close to the cliff edge... then move 17 tee to the top of the shelf, back closer to the water... and wow... it's hard to see how that doesn't improve both golf holes.

Slag and others have wholly disagreed with this though, for some valid reasons.  To each his own....

In any case the holes are pretty damn good as they are, though... and with the 16 issue solved, well... I guess it's well enough to leave them as is.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2003, 02:21:53 PM »
TH,

I wouldn't say the 16th hole BD issue is "solved," just improved. The new fairway left is a big improvement no question, but I need to play it more or stand out there and watch a day's worth of players play the hole to determine whether 16 is now a good or better than good hole. I think it is, as with the following wind one needs to carefully place the tee shot short and left for a better angle to the green--go too far long and left and you're blind which is no bargain with a tough front left bunker (and way better than unplayable in the hay which is what was over there before when you were there) and the ocean beyond.

Whaddever, I really like the idea of a par 3 16th and the 17th tee over where the 16th green is. Quite intriguing.

And BillV/Redanman's comparative analysis is spot on IMO. I'm 7:3 PD/BD. I don't think anyone on here ever said the ratio should be 10:0 PD/BD. No way.

God Bless America,

All The Best,  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2003, 02:27:15 PM »
Doug:

One of imperial title said 10-0 on this very site, not all that long ago.  Others agreed with him.

I'm sticking with 6-4 myself, with no complaints at 5-5.

The par 3 16th / different angle 17th idea was first proposed by Gib Papazian, I believe.  Berhardt and I wholly supported it.  It is intriguing, isn't it?

And finally, as for 16 being solved, well... it does seem to make sense to me from the descriptions.  I do need to see it in person, obviously... but the issue before was that there was no good place to leave a tee shot in the summer wind combined with the normal fast conditions... more room to the left would seem to solve this, for me. Just go left for some control over your fate, leave it in the hands of the golf gods going farther right.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2003, 02:34:58 PM »
BD has a higher course rating/bogey rating than PD, primarily because of length and a few more issues with high rough and forced carries.  I'll try to do an analysis of the ratings in the next few days and post them here.

I never had a problem with either 16 or 17 at Bandon.  I think they are both very good holes with difficult shots.  I really don't see  how the changes to 16 (or the older changes to 17) have made any difference in how I play the hole.  16 into the winter wind/rain on Saturday morning was tough, but I still got a driver into left side of the old upper fairway about 85 yards from the green.  In the summer I just aim it further right.

The change to 17 where they added the little alternate fairway on the left seemed totally superfluous to me as I can't see anyone aiming for it.  Just clearing out some of the brush and gorse that was on both 16 and 17 would have solved the problems as much as adding more fairway to them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2003, 02:35:17 PM »

Quote

One of imperial title said 10-0 on this very site, not all that long ago.  

Uh, well, OK. What does he know?  ;)

Could they also move the 16th tees up, leave the green where it is, and play it as a 230 yard par 3 a la a certain course down the coast?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2003, 02:41:15 PM »
I found the imperial reference.  It's currently on page 10, in the first page of posts on your Bandon report, Doug.  It's in the discussion of how many rounds to devote to each out of eight available and the imperial one says 8-0 for PD.  No particular agreement with him there, and he might have made the comment tongue-in-cheek, but still the sentiment has been expressed several times before in here...

In any case, I really think this type of thinking has caused too many people to give short-shrift to the BD course.  Our own beloved whitey went up there and played only PD... that was due to time available I'm sure, but still, that is missing something.  I guess if one has time for only one round, make it PD... but if there is time for more (which should be mandatory for any trip to the resort), playing the two close to even amounts makes great sense to me.

Re 16, well... they could do that... but that creates a LONG walk from 15 green to 16 tee, and to me the thought of doing it the other way also improves 17... so I'm for Gib's initial idea.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2003, 02:56:19 PM »
TH,

Re #16 it's not THAT long a walk--there are plenty of VERY long walks at BD as you know, and the total walking distance would be about the same. And with the par 3 green on the north side of the chasm one would have a LONG walk around the chasm to the 17th tee.  On reflection, the problem I think with my 230 yard par 3 16th over the chasm idea is that the teeing area would be quite a bit below the green surface as I recall the coastline runs downhill from the current tees.

Anyway, fun to contemplate!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2003, 03:08:09 PM »
Hmmm... yeah, I guess the total walking distance remains the same, but somehow walks from green to tee are to me a different matter than walks within a golf hole.

I don't see the walking issue in Gib's plan, and it's going to create something at least similar to the slightly famous hole several of us played last week.  16 tee stays basically where it is, then the new 16 green would sit on the far side of the chasm, to the far right of the current lower shelf... then the new 17 tee is at the top of the shelf, right on top of it. This makes for an incredible par 3 #16, a short walk of what, 15 yards to 17 tee, and then 17 takes on a better angle, as you cut more fairway out to the left, giving all sorts of options and making for a more playable tee shot in the summer wind...

Maybe our ideas for the new #16 are one and the same?  It's hard to describe with words....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2003, 03:09:51 PM »
TH
That is right I did only play PD on my last trip, but the previous trip I devoted equal time to both courses. I think I said at that timeBandon was great but when I finished at PD with out stopping said let's go again.  some great ideas for modifying 16, really like the idea of green below the shelf.  That would be fun.
I would love/intend to have either one for my home course some day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2003, 03:14:11 PM »
TH,

Guess I was missing the green locale under "your" plan--I'm not recalling the "lower shelf," which may be the disconnect. Where is that? I don't recall much room there.  What kind of carry is that from the existing tees? 250?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2003, 06:05:37 PM »
TH I hate to ever jump in font of the architect Gib but I am almost sure the original proponent of the  par 3 16th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2003, 07:22:16 AM »
First of all, my very humble apologies to:

1. Whitey, for forgetting about your prior trip and incorrectly using you as an example of someone only playing PD - even when I wrote that it seemed wrong to me, from our conversations... oh well, my bad!

2. Mr. Bernhardt, for giving YOUR idea to Gib!  Not sure at all where that came from, other than my poor memory for details.

Now Doug, as to how this works... go to the Bandon Dunes web site and look at the layout of the BD course... the lower shelf is pretty visible in that (first green "finger" in front of the tee).  Put the tee wherever is appropriate for the length of hole you want - there is a lot of room... then 17 tee goes on upper shelfm approximately where the little pot bunker at right of 16 fairway is now.  Clear out more fairway in between the current 17 and 14 to allow for all options on the new 17..

http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/.docs/pg/course_routing.html

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2003, 02:12:24 PM »
I took a look at the ratings for Bandon and Pacific and it is apparent that the rating teams think the obstacale values at Bandon are quite a bit higher.

Black Tee comparison
                        B            P          Difference
Scratch Rating    74.6       72.9
S Yardage Rating 71.5       70.7       .8 (165 yards)
S Obstacle Val      3.1         2.2       .9  (about a stroke more trouble)
Bogey Rating       101.5      97.6
B Yardage Rating   92.8      91.7       1.1
B Obstacle Value     8.8        5.9       2.9 (wow, the bogey golfer gets in a lot more trouble at Bandon)

Green Tee
                            B            P           Diff
S Rating                 72.1        70.9
S Yardage Rating     69.2        69.0       .2  (47 yards)
S Obstacle Value       2.9          1.9      1  (about the same as Black tees)
Bogey Rating           98.3        97.6
B Yardage Rating      89.6        89.3      .3
B Obstacle Value        8.7          6.0      2.7

The numbers are consistent when comparing like tees.  The fact that the bogey golfer has almost 3 strokes higher obstacle rating at Bandon is probably due to holes like #2, 3, 4, 7 and other with reasonably long carries to greens.  I don't have access to the real numbers so the Yardage ratings are done by using the card yardage where the raters might have added or subtracted yardage for things like wind, layups and the like.  16 Bandon might be a layup for the bogey golfer from the back tee so it would play longer which would increase the Bogey Yardage Rating and lower the obstacle value etc.  The ratings reflect that Bandon plays 3.9 strokes tougher for the bogey golfer from the blacks than Pacific while it only plays 1.7 strokes tougher for the scratch golfer and most of that is due to the yardage difference.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2003, 02:28:33 PM »
Great stuff - thanks, JV.  It warms my heart that this is how I thought of it both before and after I became an NCGA rater... that is, BD seemed tougher to me before, thinking about it after it really made sense, and your data confirms my thinking.

Separate question, as long as I have your "ear":  given we're supposed to do normal summer conditions, how do you allow for a Bandon/Pacific situation where each course plays so totally different in summer and winter?  Just punt and hope for the best, assuming it all balances out?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2003, 02:32:31 PM »
Given that the OGA suspends handicapping over the winter, they don't worry about the winter at all.  Helps to be in a Northern clime sometimes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2003, 02:33:56 PM »
AHA!  Very good, rational, easy solution.  This whole "golf season" thing is just so foreign to me, as you can see the thought never occurred to me.  

There is at least one benefit to living in CA.... ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2003, 02:54:33 PM »
JohnV,

That's very interesting info re the relative ratings. I certainly concur re the "bogey" golfer from my experience--Bandon Dunes presented much more difficulty than Pacific Dunes to my bogey golfer playing partner the two trips we made there due to the length and carries required at holes like 3, 7, 8 (the cross bunkers give him fits!) and 16 (has to lay up). Pac Dunes generally lets the golfer skirt around hazards--less aerial.

I find Pacific Dunes the tougher challenge (my scorecard says so too!). I've only played there in the winter--wonder if my view would change playing in the different summer wind...  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

THuckaby2

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2003, 03:00:50 PM »
This winter/summer issue keeps coming up, Doug.  Someone with more dilgence and energy could likely figure it out... Bandon Dunes web site gives course layouts that show prevailing wind directions... taking this hole by hole it likely makes great sense.  There must be some validity to how each of us look at this....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2003, 06:36:25 PM »
Apparently, the incredible winter winds we played this past weekend are exactly the opposite of the summer winds that normally roll across Bandon and Pacific.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2003, 07:14:31 PM »
Mr. Imperial Reference here,

I'll stand by my words on that. Don't get me wrong, I think BD is a good golf course, its just it isn't even in the same class as Pacific Dunes, and I'll go feature to feature with you on it!

Fellow Golfweek raters, and myself vastly over-rated Bandon Dunes when it first opened. I'm not the only one that will admit it either. I have even gotten into a scrape or two with people I really do like over it. Thankfully it was only after them getting to know me that they understood where I was coming from (Right Josh? Josh? ? ? Josh? ? ?:))

Personally, I liked the old #6. It was a good hole. What I didn't care for was the bunker work which is pretty artificial, and the walks from tee to green are quite long for some unknown reasoning, especially since more earth was moved then originally surmized.

Just my take

10-0
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2003, 08:39:54 PM »
Tommy:

Having been bombarded on this site and in personal conversations with many who have played both, I fully expected to be very disappointed with Bandon after having LOVED Pacific.  I found the opposite to be true!  After 36 on both courses, I honestly cannot decide which one I like better!  They were both so fantastic.

Sorry.  Still 5-5.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2003, 10:07:28 PM »
Some thoughts...

Bandon Dunes is a superb golf course, and is in the unfortunate situation of being situated next to a masterpiece.

In my thinking, BD may be ultimately easier for the high-handicapper despite it's length, simply because most holes offer not only plenty of room in the fairways, and a minimum of forced carries, but also larger greens and less severe surrounds.

For a relatively untested architect, Kidd did a superb job in many ways, particularly in creating strategy from the tee with "in fairway" bunkering schemes.  However, the course lacks the sophistication and marvelous subtleties that PD does, particularly around and on the greens.

Routing-wise, neither course is quite as intimate as I had hoped.  Both feature some awkward moments, but probably ultimately yield the best natural holes available on both sites.

One interesting thing is neither course really "peaks" to a finish, and in my opinion, BD does a better job of that.  Through 13 holes, PD is mindblowing, and although I really like what comes after, in some ways it's anticlimactic.  By comparison, PD has a great mid-nine stretch on the front, and a better back nine, culminating in a great stretch from 14-17, with a lackluster finisher.

I LOVED the controversial 16th at BD...ditto for 17.  I saw nothing unfair about that hole, in any wind, and perhaps that's only because of the expanded fairway that was built to the left.  However, as it stands right now, I wouldn't change a thing about it.  It's perplexing and dangerous...to be handled by kid gloves in most any situation.

Although BD has more of a traditional links look and feel, PD actually "plays" more like a links due to the opening in the front of most greens.  BD has a lot of greens where the run-up shot is simply not encouraged due to deep frontal bunkering or steep terrain on the approach.

Finally, if asked to choose which I'd play more often, I'd say it works out to 2 plays at Pacific for every 1 play at Bandon.  That is not meant to disservice or diminish Bandon in any way for it's a superb course.  Pacific is just so much fun, due largely to the type of imaginative, unusual shots one is asked to try over and over and over again.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Bandon/Pacific
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2003, 10:24:47 PM »
Paul, I think my critique is aimed more at the construction and the naturalness of both courses. Its great that they both have their different characterisitics, we aren't talking about Myrtle Beach here, where each course has its own manufactured identity. We are talking about a bluff of sandy dunes.  Bandon Dunes has some very artificial-looking/manufactured areas. If you look under the Golfweek critieria, there is many categories where Bandon Dunes doesnt even hold Pacific's golf bag. (pun intended) It's something that seperates both course by quite a distance.  A brief retrospect of those areas:

I'm going to do some dissection here that is going to piss some people off. Sorry if it does.

Bandon LOOKS like a resort course. Pacific Dunes architecturally is so superior in construction technique, if not the painstaking attempt by a group of guys to get it just perfect. I feel that the groupl that built Bandon were there to do the job and get it done; go home and cash the check. It looks as if it had about as much heart, detail wise as a CCFAD course here in SoCal. There are too many slopes that don't tie-in, let alone follow the lines that Nature provided and were scooped-away. Look how many plateau-like greens there are at Bandon. Do you think their shaping was the result of wind blowing at them? This is the spot where Golf Construction in 2003 could actually be then 1803 or 1903. The ability to understand nature is far superior now then it was then, when it is properly studied and understood. There is a reason why Tom Doak & Company made those bunkers huge, left of the green on #6, because they actually make the hole look closer from the fairway, deceptively. A player will come-up short and find himself having to putt a much longer distance because of it--or--he may decellerate his swing and come-up even shorter, running all the way back towards him. Did you notice how the bunkers tie-in at several places at Pacific Dunes? Another BIG PLUS critieria wise. (From the fairway, how many bunkers did you see right of the green on #18?) If you really were paying attention, the bunker way back of the green on the dune, ties-in withthe right bunkers, and then it looks as if it is one mass bunker. Unfortunately you don't have that at Bandon Dunes

Does the bunkering look familiar? It should, it was done by Jim Haley, who works for Rees Jones. Jim is a super guy, but, I don't think this bunkering looks like it belongs on a links course. In fact, I will go so far to say that the bunkering at Arcadian Dunes is far superior looking; shaped more interesting, and probably even placed better in some spots. That doesn't mean I don't have an affinity for the bunker placement on #8 at Bandon. Its in some great spots on that hole. Maybe even #9, And I'll backtrack to #7 and say that the bunker built into the little hill-like swale off of the tee is not bad either. But it could have been much better.

Holes #3 and 4 suffer a bit of an indentity problem. No really outstanding features utilized, but a duneline used more for contiainment.

On the front, The shaping and the look of the bunkers on #10 are not what I would call good work. Maybe placed O.K. but not what I would call great shapes for such a high profile project. #13, had its problems, and ultimately, I think it had a redal affect on the course as a whole. I would even guess to say that this is one of the reeasons why Tom Doak passed on the original site, knowing the environmental problems in that area, to an very artificially constructed green. Its unfortunate.

You won't hear a single complaint from me on #14. #15 is a tad too penal, even for links golf; and I don't have a problem like most everyone else does on #16.

#17 & 18 are completely different stories however. If they don't affect the course at least two points in your mind, then you weren't lookinag as close as you should have. At least by the Golfweek critieria.

And, I do respect diversity. But give me some facts why!:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »