News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2021, 10:54:38 AM »
The college kids are really slow also, but they are just copying what they see on TV.


Paul-In the example I cited in post # 15 one of the contestants was a Division 1 college player and his opponent was a reinstated amateur. It was a jump ball as to who was slower.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2021, 11:29:19 AM »
I would be thrilled to have a mandatory 3.5 hour round enforced with suspensions and eventual expulsions under two conditions.


1. I don't have to let through or be harassed by golfers who want to play in 2.5 hrs.


2. We all share in the cost of the lost revenue when slow players are kicked out of the club.

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2021, 02:23:59 PM »
I agree ... 2 1/2 seems good, but to me it seems like he is still really taking his time in many ways. 

I walk really slow, am overweight, am a senior, have bad eyesight, have a long pre-shot routine, hit it short and crooked, and shoot in the mid-to-high 70s -- so 10 more shots -- and my average walking round as a single on my home course was about 2 hours and 15 minutes when I didn't run into people.
I'd think a young tour pro could play in 1 hour 45 minutes pretty easily when there's not much on the line, i.e. at or near last place after the cut.  My only qualifier would be that I haven't played RSG so don't know if there are big walks or hills between tees and greens that aren't obvious.




One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Right!
2 1/2 as a single is nothing remarkable.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2021, 03:00:11 PM »
One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Everyone on GCA plays quickly, until you play in a GCA event and it takes 4.5-5 hours!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
H.P.S.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2021, 03:09:13 PM »
I agree ... 2 1/2 seems good, but to me it seems like he is still really taking his time in many ways. 

I walk really slow, am overweight, am a senior, have bad eyesight, have a long pre-shot routine, hit it short and crooked, and shoot in the mid-to-high 70s -- so 10 more shots -- and my average walking round as a single on my home course was about 2 hours and 15 minutes when I didn't run into people.
I'd think a young tour pro could play in 1 hour 45 minutes pretty easily when there's not much on the line, i.e. at or near last place after the cut.  My only qualifier would be that I haven't played RSG so don't know if there are big walks or hills between tees and greens that aren't obvious.




One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Right!
2 1/2 as a single is nothing remarkable.


It takes an hour and 40 minutes on average to walk 5 miles. They then you have to throw in the fact that you are playing golf while you walk the 5 miles. If you can play 18 holes in less than 2 hours I don't think you are concentrating too much on the golf.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 08:07:29 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2021, 04:16:06 PM »
On many development courses, the green to tee distances preclude a fast walk and carry round, particularly when 90 degrees and above.  My fastest time at Riverfront was 3:50 in the fall. It is the equivalent of walking 22 holes.


Cart golf when the course is empty can be very fast.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2021, 06:53:37 PM »
One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Everyone on GCA plays quickly, until you play in a GCA event and it takes 4.5-5 hours!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D



+1, was wondering when someone would bring this up!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2021, 06:57:38 PM »
On many development courses, the green to tee distances preclude a fast walk and carry round, particularly when 90 degrees and above.  My fastest time at Riverfront was 3:50 in the fall. It is the equivalent of walking 22 holes.


Cart golf when the course is empty can be very fast.


I hadn't realized Tom built a cart ball course. 

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2021, 07:21:54 PM »
The college kids are really slow also, but they are just copying what they see on TV.


The college coaches are the biggest reason the players are slow.  Too many coaches trying to coach players who are perfectly capable of playing quickly if left alone.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2021, 07:54:47 PM »
The college kids are really slow also, but they are just copying what they see on TV.


The college coaches are the biggest reason the players are slow.  Too many coaches trying to coach players who are perfectly capable of playing quickly if left alone.


+1
 My buddy -- who coaches the now club team for Brown after the varsity status was removed -- complains loud and long at NCAA coaches meetings... all to no avail

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2021, 09:15:23 PM »
Most courses I know of have the recommended pace from 4 to 4 hours 15 minutes. Some private clubs say finish in under 4 or you are pulled off the course. Do we all want to play faster, yes sure but is it the high cappers fault they cant keep their ball in the fairway and force the group to look several times a round for their ball? You get up to 3 minutes and let’s say it happens once a round for each of the 4 players. That is 12 minutes right there, so if it is my ProV1 and there is a match or game of some kind I’m taking my 3 minutes and would expect my playing partners to help, as I would for them. I appreciate active rangers helping to keep the pace of play going.


For pro golf it isn’t every shot that needs some extra discussion, yes there is a rule, not it isn’t enforced so we are left to complain about what could and should be. If you are going to enforce the rules then do it, if you aren’t (which the tours clearly aren’t) then we should keep putting our objections on a audio loop for years to come.


Case in point that is sports related. Pitchers using a foreign substance on balls. I know several players/coaches in MLB and it is an open secret that pitchers use “stuff”, but it was never enforced until now. Let them bitch for a couple months, but if they want to eliminate it then keep enforcing, if they don’t it will go back to Gaylord Perry days. The Tour could enforce this tomorrow, but who wants to rip off the band aid and to whom?


My bigger point is that us hacks don’t have a conversation with anyone, the time rounds take aren’t due to conversations like on the tour. If there is any situation where a golfer would need more time, it is a major with huge pressure. The rest of us pull the club, follow your ball and keep up.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2021, 11:36:16 PM »
... Do we all want to play faster, yes sure but is it the high cappers fault they cant keep their ball in the fairway and force the group to look several times a round for their ball?
...

And we high cappers that walk and play 18 as a two ball twosome in 2 hours think the low cappers grinding for an unimportant number, reading putts from all sides, performing their preshot routine, and taking excessive practice swings to judge the swing to get the proper distance will be the death of golf.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2021, 11:46:20 PM »
On many development courses, the green to tee distances preclude a fast walk and carry round, particularly when 90 degrees and above.  My fastest time at Riverfront was 3:50 in the fall. It is the equivalent of walking 22 holes.


Cart golf when the course is empty can be very fast.

Over 100 degrees walking and playing 2 1/2 hours behind a couple in a cart where both the man and woman can beat me at golf who were obviously hurrying, I waited on most shots. When I saw them after the round the gentleman said he was surprised I played so quickly given the heat.

My response? Would you rather spend 2 1/2 hours, or 4 hours in that heat? His response? Point well taken!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2021, 12:47:00 AM »
The college kids are really slow also, but they are just copying what they see on TV.


The college coaches are the biggest reason the players are slow.  Too many coaches trying to coach players who are perfectly capable of playing quickly if left alone.


One group I was a walking scorer for at the Women's Western Regional at Karsten Creek had three individual qualifiers. 


Chris Cupit was the official and when I talked to him about how horrible it was to have three coaches walking with them all day he said that any time he saw a group of individual qualifiers he knew it was going to be a long day.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2021, 03:21:35 AM »
One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Yeah, its depressing that 2.5 hours as a single has become fast.


30 years ago, Norman and OMeara did under 1.5 hours as a two ball.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2021, 04:02:13 AM »
One of my mates played in the 4th round Open at St Andrews and was asked if he wanted a player or marker. He took the marker and said he was putting on the 12th green whilst the next pair were on the 6th. He was round in 2 hours and 72 I think.


They just want to get home.


A marker and single player would still take ages if it was Round 1.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2021, 06:11:45 AM »
If there was ever a time to take your time it is in a major championship with 10-15 million purse under enormous pressure. I don’t care much if the pros take an extra minute to get their thoughts right.


It rangers at courses for us amateurs to keep the groups moving. A casual round should be possible in under 4 hours. You don’t have to play good to play fast.
Astonishing.  If every player in every group took an extra minute on 50% of their shots, they'd be playing 6 hour rounds.


A casual round should be possible in under 3 hours.  A competitive round should be possible in well under 4.


My game usually goes off in the first group of the day. We play in 3:15 to 3:20. We finish at least 2 holes in front of the group behind us. We're all walking. Under 3 hours without carts would be tough.
Is that a four ball?  In which case it sounds about right.  Twice this year I have played in a two, in a medal competition and got round in just under three hours walking.  An extra 20/25 minutes for a couple of extra players is about right, I imagine.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2021, 07:53:00 AM »
We get this thread every few years and we find out how fast a single and a two ball can play-which requires minimal cooperation between players.
Unfortunately, on a post pandemic full busy course, the pace of smaller groups isn't relevant, and such smaller groups can slow down larger groups by continually playing through(great if space allows but just doesn't work if there's nowhere to go and every single play through adds time to the slower/larger group).


the real key to busy course flow is teaching groups of 4 how to play ready golf, and maintain a consistent pace throughout the course.
So many just aren't ready when it's their turn, begin a long routine AFTER it's clearly their turn,take too many practice swings, start a long story when it's someone's turn to tee off(rather than when they are walking), don't read a putt when others are playing, don't grab a couple of clubs when parking a cart remotely or sharing a caddie--or worse yet refuse to proceed without a caddie's input-who may well be performing other duties.
In short it takes a coordinated effort for any group to play 4 balls at a sub 4 or even a 4 hour pace, and frankly all it takes is a couple of groups not doing this to slow the whole day down.


Competitive golf, well,as i said fast players either learn to play slow or just stop playing competitive events if there is not proactive pace of play management.The MET PGA does a good job with this, but in fairness most of our events are not played on modern pace of play monstrocities, and when they occasionally are-it grinds to a predictable halt.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:14:03 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2021, 03:45:11 PM »
One and a half hours might have been worth a thread, but two and a half .... really?  ::)


Yeah, its depressing that 2.5 hours as a single has become fast.


30 years ago, Norman and OMeara did under 1.5 hours as a two ball.


No way a two ball is playing in 1.5.  Here is the fastest round in Euro Tour history and as you can see he is running between shots.


https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/fastest-european-tour-round/




"The fastest round of golf recorded on the PGA Tour is held by Wesley Bryan who completed his final round at the 2017 BMW Championship in just 1 hour 28 minutes while shooting 69."
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:47:17 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2021, 03:51:52 PM »
If there was ever a time to take your time it is in a major championship with 10-15 million purse under enormous pressure. I don’t care much if the pros take an extra minute to get their thoughts right.


It rangers at courses for us amateurs to keep the groups moving. A casual round should be possible in under 4 hours. You don’t have to play good to play fast.
Astonishing.  If every player in every group took an extra minute on 50% of their shots, they'd be playing 6 hour rounds.


A casual round should be possible in under 3 hours.  A competitive round should be possible in well under 4.


My game usually goes off in the first group of the day. We play in 3:15 to 3:20. We finish at least 2 holes in front of the group behind us. We're all walking. Under 3 hours without carts would be tough.
Is that a four ball?  In which case it sounds about right.  Twice this year I have played in a two, in a medal competition and got round in just under three hours walking.  An extra 20/25 minutes for a couple of extra players is about right, I imagine.


Yes 4 ball. If there is anyone behind us the first guy to hole out goes to the next tee to keep us moving until we get a hole or so ahead.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2021, 06:14:14 PM »
I thought he was really good in Tin Cup.
F.


 ;D
Perfect. Love you, F!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2021, 06:40:45 PM »
I thought he was really good in Tin Cup.
F.


 ;D
Perfect. Love you, F!
I preferred him in Dances with Wolves.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2021, 04:22:47 AM »
While I don't like slow play, the goal of golf is not who finishes in the least amount of time. Some modern, big, spread out courses can take 4.5 hours for a 4ball without doing anything stupid or looking for a ton of balls. Add stupid rough etc and the game runs to 5 hours. Same four players on an old, shortish, compact course can take 3.5 to play. Slow play is due to a combination of factors. I will take a quicker play movement more seriously when clubs and course operators learn to cut back rough, keep tees close to greens and identify problematic players.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 04:24:20 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2021, 07:40:05 AM »
I really don't care what speed anyone plays at as long as they let faster players/groups through. Saying you are keeping up with the group in front, who might be equally as slow, is no excuse. Stand aside and let quicker players through.

As for the pro's, it's their tour so up to them but watching Morokawa and Speith go on their turgid way was torture. I was concentrating on other things long before the end.

Niall

ps. I once played Moray Old in just over 2 hours, hitting a couple of second shots here and there along the way, and that included standing aside to let a quicker single through.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kevin Kisner Plays Final Round In Two And A Half Hours
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2021, 07:42:47 AM »
and this garbage continues downstream.
I played in a lead group in a recent professional event where our  3 ball took 4:30 with endless, out loud caddie deliberations every-single-shot. 4:30 as a lead group on a benign layout is absurd. Ruins any chance for the rest of the field.
I begged an official to put us on the clock.
He told us to speed up then drove away.
Nothing changed.


Jeff, you might not care if they take an extra minute "to get their thoughts right" but it sucks for the rest of the field.
Where do you draw the line on what constitutes serious golf?
ALL PLAYERS at every level should have a shot clock-ESPECIALLY the best players so the morons who(try to) copy them get the message.
Not everybody is slow, but the fast learn to play slow to adapt-or they just quit competing altogether.


Caddy chat sucks-especially out loud, as if for an audience.
Worst thing that has happened to golf the last 20 years.
And those who enjoy listening to it on TV are part of the problem-creating the demand for it and normalizing it.

Jeff

 I salute you. You encapsulated my thoughts entirely.

Niall

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back