Those greens look so slow

[Jerry Kluger]

Watching The Open and they say that the greens are running at a 10 and so many putts seem to be coming up short. I understand the greens have significant movement to them but Justin Leonard did say the hole locations are on level parts of the greens so why not get them moving  at higher speeds as they look like they are holding.

[Tom_Doak]

I know for a fact that the target speed for The Open this year was 9.5 because the European Tour wanted the same speed at the Scottish Open the week prior.


It’s a defensive decision because the fescue greens actually get a bit faster during the day as they dry out, and if they dry out and the wind picks up you might see the dreaded “oscillation” on the greens that makes them pause play.

[jeffwarne]

One day, players, fans and critics will see putts "coming up short" as being on THE PLAYER, not the course.


With constant equipment and skill development, every major there are all kids of contrived ways to hold scoring back.(new tees, deep rough, dead plinko greens, brutal pins)


But God forbid a highly sustainable strategy(that confounds players) like slow greens. Where players "can't get the ball to the hole".
What does that mean exactly? You can hit an 8 iron 200 yards but can't get a 20 footer to the hole?
remember how often we heard Tiger complain about slow greens?
Striking an uphill 30 footer solidly with distance control on a slow green is a skill. Taking a 4 inch backswing on a similar length putt on a lightning fast green armed with far less slope is far easier.
Mishit putts used to matter-now any part of the face imparts enough speed to get it somewhere near the hole.




Then combine that with pins ON and INTO SLOPES, and we'll see some interesting golf, rather than the continued race to the bottom of flat, soft, unsustainable, uninteresting greens

[MCirba]

One day, players, fans and critics will see putts "coming up short" as being on THE PLAYER, not the course.


With constant equipment and skill development, every major there are all kids of contrived ways to hold scoring back.(new tees, deep rough, dead plinko greens, brutal pins)


But God forbid a highly sustainable strategy(that confounds players) like slow greens. Where players "can't get the ball to the hole".
What does that mean exactly? You can hit an 8 iron 200 yards but can't get a 20 footer to the hole?
remember how often we heard Tiger complain about slow greens?
Striking an uphill 30 footer solidly with distance control on a slow green is a skill. Taking a 4 inch backswing on a similar length putt on a lightning fast green armed with far less slope is far easier.
Mishit putts used to matter-now any part of the face imparts enough speed t get it somewhere near the hole.




Then combine that with pins ON and INTO SLOPES, and we'll see some interesting golf, rather than the continued race to the bottom of flat, soft, unsustainable, uninteresting greens

Post of the year, IMHO.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff, great post.


Let’s also recognize that the R&A believes in sustainability, and puts their money where their mouth is on the biggest possible stage.  They have been great supporters of the Golf Environment Organization from day one.


If only the USGA had the same commitment to principle, but the U.S. Open has always been a showcase for “Do as I say, not as I do.”  That’s why all the recent $15m renovations of US Open venues bother me so much.

[John Emerson]

One day, players, fans and critics will see putts "coming up short" as being on THE PLAYER, not the course.


With constant equipment and skill development, every major there are all kids of contrived ways to hold scoring back.(new tees, deep rough, dead plinko greens, brutal pins)


But God forbid a highly sustainable strategy(that confounds players) like slow greens. Where players "can't get the ball to the hole".
What does that mean exactly? You can hit an 8 iron 200 yards but can't get a 20 footer to the hole?
remember how often we heard Tiger complain about slow greens?
Striking an uphill 30 footer solidly with distance control on a slow green is a skill. Taking a 4 inch backswing on a similar length putt on a lightning fast green armed with far less slope is far easier.
Mishit putts used to matter-now any part of the face imparts enough speed t get it somewhere near the hole.




Then combine that with pins ON and INTO SLOPES, and we'll see some interesting golf, rather than the continued race to the bottom of flat, soft, unsustainable, uninteresting greens

Nice Jeff ✊🏼👍🏻

[Craig Sweet]

Justin Leonard calling the pin locations flat from a studio in CT. LOL!


I have turned off the sound, and if NBC continues with the barrage of commercials I'll turn the TV off, and listen to Sirius/XM

[Jerry Kluger]

Justin Leonard said that a number of holes yesterday were on slopes which made it more difficult but that was not the case today.  If that is true then there is no reason not to be aggressive on the greens where there is not that much fear that the putt will roll out so far as to make the next putt outside of a players comfort zone. With little wind, greens that are receptive and on the slow side a player who strikes the ball well and putts aggressively could post a very low round.  Nothing wrong with that but takes a lot of the quirk out of the picture. The top players in the world have proven not only that they are the best ball strikers but also the best putters.


BTW: I am sure that they have diagrams of the greens back in the studio.

[Tim Martin]

Why haven’t they gotten the speed right after being here the entire week especially with a lack of adverse weather? Hole after hole and player after player continue to come up three feet short on different length putts.

[Craig Sweet]

Jerry, you don't wake up in the morning and say "I'm going to have the greens running at 11 today."  It often takes a few weeks with a target speed in mind....and no guarantee that you'll hit that bullseye.  But if your plan is to have them running at 9.5 at the beginning of the tournament, and you hit the bullseye, you might be able to squeeze 10.5 out of them if all goes well.  Paul Larsen said, in an interview right before the tournament that the greens were a tad slower than he wanted, but if the winds come up and the course continued to dry out, he might get 10...maybe 10.5 speeds.

[Craig Sweet]

Tim...that is not the fault of the greens, nor the Super...It is the fault of the players. They have had all week to dial in the speed and they haven't.

[Tim Martin]

Tim...that is not the fault of the greens, nor the Super...It is the fault of the players. They have had all week to dial in the speed and they haven't.

Craig-Agreed.

[William_G]

slow greens are required when there is wind and slope

[Jerry Kluger]

By no means I am saying that there is something wrong with the greens but perhaps they were overly cautious after what has happened at the US Open.  The best golfers who are the best putters in the world are coming up short - perhaps they are slower today than they had been the other days.  Morikawa is adopting well and that is why he is leading and rightfully so. 

[Thomas Dai]

One day, players, fans and critics will see putts "coming up short" as being on THE PLAYER, not the course.
With constant equipment and skill development, every major there are all kids of contrived ways to hold scoring back.(new tees, deep rough, dead plinko greens, brutal pins)
But God forbid a highly sustainable strategy(that confounds players) like slow greens. Where players "can't get the ball to the hole".
What does that mean exactly? You can hit an 8 iron 200 yards but can't get a 20 footer to the hole?
remember how often we heard Tiger complain about slow greens?
Striking an uphill 30 footer solidly with distance control on a slow green is a skill. Taking a 4 inch backswing on a similar length putt on a lightning fast green armed with far less slope is far easier.
Mishit putts used to matter-now any part of the face imparts enough speed to get it somewhere near the hole.
Then combine that with pins ON and INTO SLOPES, and we'll see some interesting golf, rather than the continued race to the bottom of flat, soft, unsustainable, uninteresting greens

+1 Well said Jeff.
Atb

[Garland Bayley]

Watching The Open and they say that the greens are running at a 10 and so many putts seem to be coming up short. ...

So hit the putts harder! DUH!

[Peter Sayegh]

One day, players, fans and critics will see putts "coming up short" as being on THE PLAYER, not the course.
Striking an uphill 30 footer solidly with distance control on a slow green is a skill. Taking a 4 inch backswing on a similar length putt on a lightning fast green armed with far less slope is far easier.
Mishit putts used to matter-now any part of the face imparts enough speed to get it somewhere near the hole.

THIS, especially.
Twenty five years ago, a former tour caddie told me that slower green speeds exposed flaws in a player's putting mechanics-which no professional will ever admit.
Nice post Jeff.

[James Brown]

The greens at RSG were PERFECT for a links test.  Our friends in the British Isles know how to setup a course.  They didn’t mow the rough for 2 years and let the course present according to the weather.  That’s as good as you can do.  These best golfer won. 

[JohnVDB]

I believe I heard that Morikawa went to a heavier putter because of the slower greens. Seems to have worked well for him.

[David_Tepper]

From golfdigest.com:

"Morikawa’s TP Juno putter also received a tweak. Morikawa noticed how much slower the greens are versus a typical week on the PGA Tour and was struggling to get the ball to the hole last week in Scotland. As such, he tested different putter head weights and ended up removing the pair of 2.5-gram sole weights and replaced them with two 7.5-gram weights in his TP Juno blade, providing 10 grams more heft to help get the ball rolling more."

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-open-2021-collin-morikawa-winning-clubs?utm_medium=email&utm_source=071821&utm_campaign=breakingnews&utm_content=DM19453&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0
 

[Mark Pearce]

By no means I am saying that there is something wrong with the greens but perhaps they were overly cautious after what has happened at the US Open.  The best golfers who are the best putters in the world are coming up short - perhaps they are slower today than they had been the other days.  Morikawa is adopting well and that is why he is leading and rightfully so.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with the greens.....but there's something wrong with the greens.


Really, Jerry?

[jeffwarne]

By no means I am saying that there is something wrong with the greens but perhaps they were overly cautious after what has happened at the US Open.  The best golfers who are the best putters in the world are coming up short - perhaps they are slower today than they had been the other days.  Morikawa is adopting well and that is why he is leading and rightfully so.

Serious question.
If the players kept coming up short on their approaches, would you suggest they move the tees up?
Morikawa and Spieth putted GREAT today-the others didn't-they adapted, the same as players adapt to wind, grain, rain etc.


I know I've gone all curmudgeon, but once upon a time there were courses with fast greens,courses with slow greens, long courses, short courses, hilly courses,tight courses, open courses, flat courses etc.etc. etc.


Why the race to homogenize?
If Zinger and the other clueless commentators were at Wimbledon he'd suggest cement would be a faster surface.


Kudos to the R&A, and for that matter the USGA who didn't kill the greens at Torrey(pretty low bar).
Sure I would've liked to have seen windier weather, but..
I can't remember when I've seen better golf.

[David_Tepper]

"If Zinger and the other clueless commentators were at Wimbledon he'd suggest cement would be a faster surface."

Jeff -

Not wishing to threadjack, but the grass courts at Wimbledon (which were slowed down 10-15 years ago) really do need to be speeded up a bit. The rallies from the backcourt last too long and the serve & volley game is more or less extinct.

What's the point of playing tennis on a grass court if it is too slow to play grass court tennis.

DT


   

[jeffwarne]

"If Zinger and the other clueless commentators were at Wimbledon he'd suggest cement would be a faster surface."

Jeff -

Not wishing to threadjack, but the grass courts at Wimbledon (which were slowed down 10-15 years ago) really do need to be speeded up a bit. The rallies from the backcourt last too long and the serve & volley game is more or less extinct.

What's the point of playing tennis on a grass court if it is too slow to play grass court tennis.

DT

OK Zinger

[John Mayhugh]

Serious question.
If the players kept coming up short on their approaches, would you suggest they move the tees up?
Morikawa and Spieth putted GREAT today-the others didn't-they adapted, the same as players adapt to wind, grain, rain etc.

I know I've gone all curmudgeon, but once upon a time there were courses with fast greens,courses with slow greens, long courses, short courses, hilly courses,tight courses, open courses, flat courses etc.etc. etc.

Why the race to homogenize?

How long should it have taken the best players in the world to adapt to slightly slower greens? FFS golf involves more than just hitting the same over and over. It's a shame that the guys covering the event couldn't understand this.