New Norman course

[Phil Burr]

This message is aimed primarily at the architects on this site.  My earlier posting was intended to be a bit of irreverent fun.  It was inappropriate of me to lump Architects Golf Club, a carefully thought-out and loving conceived homage to the great early practitioners of the art, into the same bucket as the numerous marketing-driven tributes that are in reality little more artificially contrived efforts to price-gouge unwitting golfers who think the red and white replica lighthouse in the Houston suburbs in any way approximates the experience of playing Harbour Town.  If Stephen Kay, Ron Whitten or anyone else associated with Architects GC was offended by my post, please accept my apologies.

[Phil Burr]

I don’t want to pile on Norman but developers must not be asking him to create great golf.  Sell lots of real estate, more likely.  I’ve never been Down Under but I can’t imagine how any Australian could endorse an Illinois course as being inspired by Royal Melbourne when the layout actually appears to hopscotch through wetlands.  I guess they couldn’t have sold costly memberships and homes if they called it Allstate GC, which seems like a more appropriate name given its general resemblance to its neighbor Kemper Lakes.


Here in Scottsdale, Stonehaven (BBNO - built but never opened, as opposed to NLE) stands as ample evidence that developers can change directions on a whim, and perhaps the Shark is unfortunate to regularly align himself with people more interested in being associated with him and his man’s-man image than they are in leaving a mark on the golf world.

[Mike_Clayton]

I don’t want to be unkind, or even more of a golf course snob, but has Greg Norman ever built a golf course that was any good at all?  I’ve never seen even one I would give any Doak Scale number to—other than to say it was a total waste of money.  Very sad!

I've never seen one of Greg's courses outside of Australia but there are some good ones here - the Moonah course at The National is very good and the best of them. A lot of it was Bob Harrison who did all of Greg's early work in Australia.

[Peter Flory]

He really does a ton of resort courses. 


The Bluffs in Vietnam looks like it was on a great property:

[Tim Martin]

Anyone have any thoughts on Ellerston GC?

[Jonathan Cummings]

I thought Cathedral Lodge was quite good, especially the finishing series.  As Mike says Moonah is good and the Bluffs in Vietnam is worthy as well.  Still trying to worm my way on Ellerston.....

[Tim Gavrich]

I always enjoy playing The Reserve in Pawleys Island, SC, which Norman designed originally; the course has been tweaked in a few ways since, but still substantially Norman's routing and everything. No maintained rough, lots of options around the greens, which have some interesting tilts and contours.


Up in Myrtle Beach, his course at Barefoot Resort used to be pretty decent but over time it's been choked out by housing.



I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I thought the NLE Great White course at Doral was entertaining and an interesting concept. It both hit and missed the mark at times but at least it dared to be different.

[Mike_Clayton]

Anyone have any thoughts on Ellerston GC?

Unwalkable - at least in golf course terms - but the owner, Kerry Packer (was the richest man in Australia) didn't care and it's very difficult, which was the brief.
Bob Harrison would ask him about the course and how it was turning out. "I don't care what you do Bob, just make it f..ing hard"
Bob once called Packer and asked him about the women's tees and where they might go.
Silence for a bit and then, "You are f..ing joking"


There are a lot of very good holes though and the views of the Australian countryside are both long and beautiful.


I asked Bob once how much land Packer owned up there. "As far as you can see - he owns it all!"

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I am very biased but the Norman course at Red Sky in Colorado is not bad. Good use of both sidehill/valley/uphill/downhill holes in a very compact routing for a mountain course. Lots of short grass around greens as well.

[Jeff Schley]

I won’t dog pile on Norman as I quite like the dozen or so Norman courses I have played. Granted he typically gets a big budget, but the Jumeriah Golf Estates courses (fire and earth) are very nice, especially the Earth IMO. Cathedral Lodge is a little tricked up putting holes up extreme slopes and drop shot par 3, reminded me of winding through mountains in So Cal. However it did have outstanding variety so I guess thank the land for that.


Teh PGA West Norman course was much tougher when it opened with flowers and foliage in the blunders when it first opened. it is a beautiful course on flat land in the desert and uses various water hazards, not great architecture but he started with flat sand as well. I didn’t see Doonbeg before the changes.
Overall he has done some very good courses IMO.

[jeffwarne]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I thought the NLE Great White course at Doral was entertaining and an interesting concept. It both hit and missed the mark at times but at least it dared to be different.

ugghhh.
I loved the old White course, before Norman defaced it.
It was a mini version of the old Blue, and a perfect course for resort guests tired of losing balls on the other 4 courses.
They could've spent 1/10th of what they did by rehabbing the White, rather than allowing Norman to deface it, clearing all of those ghetto shielding beautiful Ficus trees in favor of stupid palms and imported acres of sand.
A beautiful mature landscape was marred and replaced by views of the dilapidated neighborhood and over the top, altered environment "what's hot lately" 80's theme architecture(in the 90's).
The par 3 course, where i did a ton of teaching and practicing, was absorbed in the Great White debacle.
I watched Crenshaw shoot a 94 in the Shark Shootout there and gracefully avoid commenting on the the course.
A great property blighted, and converted to commercial real estate not long after.