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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2021, 03:47:04 AM »
Don't wish to labour points but....

Doak (08/1982 a very busy month) has it as a 4 and only he and Masa have been there! But someone should have pickedup between editions that there are two courses at Moray and its the other one that has had input from Cotton.

I'm at a loss here.  Yes it lacks dramatic views but there's variety - a surprising no of doglegs for a links and cool greens e.g. 14 and a really thrilling closing hole (which is not often the case on a links). Solid from start to last which again is not always the case. If we agree that any reasonable links starts as a 5 then its clearly a notch or two above the starting point.  The old Peugeot/Rolex guide has it at 17/20 which feels closer to me.

Clearly to each his own but I rate as a more interesting play than e.g Dunbar, Dundonald, Eden, Lundin, Leven, RND, Portsalon, Tenby, Princes as they all have weaker or repeitative sections.

Courses I'd place on a similar level: eg  Rosses Point, Enniscrone,  Wallasey, Gullane 1 + 2.

All of the above are better known/appreciated on here.

Spangles

Well, I don't know where I got a Doak 6 from; maybe that is what I think.  To give Moray Old a 4 is very harsh, but saying its 17/20 (roughly equal to a Doak 8-9) puts you well over your skiis. I generally agree that Moray Old stands up well to the courses you mentioned except for Princes and Rosses Point. To me these are superior to Moray Old.

Its probably no secret, but my favourite of the trip was Covesea. My least favourite was Cullen. The Morays fill the middle.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 03:49:43 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2021, 08:25:05 AM »
Sean

As you are well aware I'm a former member at Moray and no doubt you'll think me biased, which is probably true, but I've also had the great advantage of playing these courses a number of times and in different types of conditions. There is no doubt that Moray Old is the best and in my view most enjoyable course of the four listed and indeed I'm on record as saying that it is as good a links as there is in the north of Scotland, and yes that does include RDGC, Nairn etc.

How does that square with the respective rankings of Moray Old versus, for instance, RDGC you may ask ? I think there are a couple of reasons for that, firstly; RDGC and to a lesser extent Nairn have been "discovered" and the hordes/raters keep making the pilgrimage and burnishing the legend. In a sense it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and they rate it as they expect to rate it. The second reason, which I think you have succumbed to, is to either consciously or sub-consciously judge the design partly on the condition of the course when you play it. In this instance the state of the fairways was poor, due to issues with the irrigation system (who says you don't need sprinkler systems in Scotland !).

When you consider that Moray has two full size 18 hole courses, the same as RDGC, yet has about a third the number of green-keeping staff, you realise that keeping of with the Jones all of the time isn't possible. However I'm confident that if you were to go back to Moray during Moray Open week then you'd come away with a much higher opinion of the course. It would help also that you'd been before you'd be more familiar with the layout and the nuances would reveal themselves more second time round. Usually the sign of a very good course in my experience.

I do agree though that I wouldn't compare it with Rosses Point, although only because in a sense you would be comparing apples to oranges. Rosses Point is all about the green complexes as the land isn't as interesting whereas at Moray it is a mixture of the routing, greens, topography etc. That is why I think Moray Old is less susceptible to being weakened by the odd tweak. At Rosses Point, where the Lord Voldemort of GCA (you dare not mention his name or risk the threat of Legal action) is doing his thing, you have to fear that some of the magic will be lost.

Going back to the Moray courses, I do wonder if your preference for Covesea over Cullen has to do with playing Covesea first, in that the novelty had worn off by the time you got to Cullen ? Either way, if going back I'd urge you to play Elgin and Duff House Royal which are comfortably the 2nd and 3rd best courses in Moray.

Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE New
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2021, 05:14:05 AM »
Sean

As you are well aware I'm a former member at Moray and no doubt you'll think me biased, which is probably true, but I've also had the great advantage of playing these courses a number of times and in different types of conditions. There is no doubt that Moray Old is the best and in my view most enjoyable course of the four listed and indeed I'm on record as saying that it is as good a links as there is in the north of Scotland, and yes that does include RDGC, Nairn etc.

How does that square with the respective rankings of Moray Old versus, for instance, RDGC you may ask ? I think there are a couple of reasons for that, firstly; RDGC and to a lesser extent Nairn have been "discovered" and the hordes/raters keep making the pilgrimage and burnishing the legend. In a sense it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and they rate it as they expect to rate it. The second reason, which I think you have succumbed to, is to either consciously or sub-consciously judge the design partly on the condition of the course when you play it. In this instance the state of the fairways was poor, due to issues with the irrigation system (who says you don't need sprinkler systems in Scotland !).

When you consider that Moray has two full size 18 hole courses, the same as RDGC, yet has about a third the number of green-keeping staff, you realise that keeping of with the Jones all of the time isn't possible. However I'm confident that if you were to go back to Moray during Moray Open week then you'd come away with a much higher opinion of the course. It would help also that you'd been before you'd be more familiar with the layout and the nuances would reveal themselves more second time round. Usually the sign of a very good course in my experience.

I do agree though that I wouldn't compare it with Rosses Point, although only because in a sense you would be comparing apples to oranges. Rosses Point is all about the green complexes as the land isn't as interesting whereas at Moray it is a mixture of the routing, greens, topography etc. That is why I think Moray Old is less susceptible to being weakened by the odd tweak. At Rosses Point, where the Lord Voldemort of GCA (you dare not mention his name or risk the threat of Legal action) is doing his thing, you have to fear that some of the magic will be lost.

Going back to the Moray courses, I do wonder if your preference for Covesea over Cullen has to do with playing Covesea first, in that the novelty had worn off by the time you got to Cullen ? Either way, if going back I'd urge you to play Elgin and Duff House Royal which are comfortably the 2nd and 3rd best courses in Moray.

Niall

Niall

I call them as see them. Conditioning matters to some degree and I will tick a course that is obviously sub-standard.  Likewise, I will give a course a boost if it is excpetionally well conditioned. In either case, its rare for me because I understand that conditioning comes and goes, as it should. But terrible fairways in the middle of summer is not on. All that said, Moray Old is for me in terms of quality design comfortably top 100 GB&I....bottom half...so a good course. Not in the league of Dornoch as you suggest, but good. As I said before, maybe a Doak 7 (a Doak 4 is laughable) if in decent nick...would need to play it a few times more, which isn't likely. My bottom line is simple, Moray Old doesn't make my Happy 100. You and Spangles may not agree, but I am ok with that...its a discerning and elusive list which I don't fully comprehend  8)

I prefer Covesea to Cullen because it offers just as many interesting holes in half the number. While likely not applauded by most, the concept of small non-links greens is a stroke of genius and works well with the property. Its a sacrifice for sure, but the property is so small that something had to give. Covesea makes my Happy 100... :D .

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 08:18:54 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2021, 02:01:44 PM »
Given Tom has given links courses i like a 3, i think 4 is appropriate for Moray Old.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2021, 07:44:21 AM »
Sean

You certainly do call them as you see them and I've no complaints on that. I'm just critiquing your critique. It is interesting though that our views are so diverse. Maybe what Moray needs is a Tom Watson to discover it, or on second thoughts perhaps not.

Covesea - even though you are something of a contrarian I'm still a bit surprised you liked Covesea so much. I'd have thought it was too tight for you to get fully on board with it ?

Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2021, 04:07:33 AM »
Sean

You certainly do call them as you see them and I've no complaints on that. I'm just critiquing your critique. It is interesting though that our views are so diverse. Maybe what Moray needs is a Tom Watson to discover it, or on second thoughts perhaps not.

Covesea - even though you are something of a contrarian I'm still a bit surprised you liked Covesea so much. I'd have thought it was too tight for you to get fully on board with it ?

Niall

Niall, if by diverse you mean my holding Dornoch in much higher regard to Moray, well, I suspect you are in a lonely corner.

Yes, Covesea is tight, but the course is short enough that one can layup and still have a decent chance to score to handicap. It's rather like Castlerock's Bann course in that regard. Yes, I would prefer more width, but these courses work alright without the width. They aren't great mind you, but they work.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MORAY GC OLD COURSE
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2021, 07:24:34 AM »
Sean

No, by diverse I mean we clearly have different views on the quality of Moray Old. I was merely using RDGC as a convenient yardstick. Ignore the reference to Dornoch and you still think a lot less of Moray Old than I do. No great drama or crime in that...........but clearly you are wrong  ;D

Niall

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