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TEPaul

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2003, 06:17:57 AM »
I must say I know very little to almost nothing about Herbert Fowler but at the same time he would probably be in the 1/4 of a handful of architects I'd truly like to know a great deal about.

Cornish and Whitten give Fowler both a good deal of space and treatment in their tome as one of the truly significant ones of the so-called "Heathland architects" that any real serious student of architecture should be as well versed on as possible, in my opinion. The reason for that is the true significance and the influence on the evolution of golf architecture of those so-called "Heathland architects".

Park, Fowler, Colt, Alison, Abercromby, Mackenzie et al!

C&W had this to say about Fowler;

"Herbert Fowler was perhaps the most gifted architect of his time," (and that was in a section of their book that treated all the "Heathland architects" and others),

and that remark was followed by a quote of Darwin's on Fowler;

"I never knew anyone who could more swiftly take in the possiblilites of a piece of ground."

I'd like to know a lot more about Fowler and I'd like to know a lot more about Abercromby, and Colt and Alison too. I do know a few things about Alison and only regarding a few specifics but he seemed to me to be truly impressive, perhaps as much as any of them.

Regarding Fowler C&W had this to say;

"His creation (his first one on which he spent two solid years!) which opened in 1904, was called Walton Heath; it attracted even more attention than Park's Sunningdale had three years earlier."

And C&W had this to say about all of them;

"They also realized that where a satisfactory natural contour could be utilized in the design of a hole, it should be used. But where none existed, naturally appearing sites for greens, tees, landing areas and even bunkers could be created by man."

"The competent designers in this period recognized that aesthetics are an intrinsic part of the game of golf. When designing a course these men subdued harsh natural features. They encorporated trees into the design of certain holes. They abhored geometrically shaped greens and hazards and built theirs to blend into the surrounding terrain."

This is all clearly the first and best true and dedicated expression of "naturalism" in man made architecture and that alone is truly significant, in my opinion.

Much more should be known about those approximately half dozen so-called early "Heathland architects" as much as anything not just for what they did but for when they did it---because, again, that latter part has a great deal to do with a real influence on the future and evolution of architecture, in my opinion.

 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2003, 06:23:13 AM by TEPaul »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2003, 09:42:24 AM »
Thank you Tom Paul, as I see it, that was the first substantive contribution to these two threads running about Fowler. ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2003, 10:05:28 AM »
Thanks, too, Tom.  Dick is right--in one refreshingly concise post you have quintupled the information on Fowler on this or the 100+ post companion thread.  Neverthelss, we are still a million miles away from understanding what is a "Fowler", wether or not Del Paso qualifies as such, and if so whether or not it deserves "restoration."  From all I have read, Kyle Phillips may in fact be the current world expert on Fowler/Del Paso.  Perhaps we should try to learn from what he has learned rather than crapping on him blindly from cyberspace?

Tommy N

Thanks for asking me to help in the research, but I choose to serve GCA in other ways, and have no special access to anything relevant anyway.  Good hunting to you and your merry band of sleuths, though!

TEPaul

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2003, 05:12:17 PM »
From what I've heard if an American wants to see an excellent and perhaps true (true as could be expected today) representation of Herbert Fowler and what his architecture is about one should see Eastward Ho! and in this coming year I plan to do just that.

As for a good representation of Colt I suppose I saw that in Royal Port Rush and it's an awesome golf course.

I've never seen any Abercrombie that I know of but I'd like to. As for Alison, the early photos of Hirono are representative enough to see his talent and there are at least three greens at PVGC that are Alison and they speak well for his talent.

As for Mackenzie what does one need to say to about him? Mackenzie at his best was probably the best in the annals of golf architecture, in my opinion. I've played CPC, and there is a contingent who think that course may be the best in the world. I wouldn't go quite that far but close! I played Alwoodley this year and was really impressed for various reasons. Many of the holes are just good basic golf and certainly don't try to visually impress anyone but there're 5-6 others that in various ways and for various reasons I'll never forget. Those ones for differing reasons were an instant education in really great golf architecture!

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2003, 09:22:03 AM »
Here's the article that I posted which includes Fowler:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6936

I've played several Fowler, in UK only, some basic similarities:  

1)  He doesn't appear to go for elaborate bunkers:  more simple pits.  Moderate to minimal in number, even on flattish courses.

2)  Greens are usually well contoured, not wild but far from flat.

3)  He didn't move much earth at all.  Even compared with his rivals.

I want to pin down what he did at Westward Ho!

If I have time, I'll post some pics of Beau Desert, a Fowler hidden gem.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Chris_Clouser

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2003, 09:26:05 AM »
Paul,

Did you get my e-mail I sent you last week?  

Chris

TEPaul

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2003, 11:15:39 AM »
"If I have time, I'll post some pics of Beau Desert, a Fowler hidden gem."

Paul:

Don't do it. The only purpose that appears to have served on here is to create an endless debate with Pat Mucci about an unnatural look in architecture and how that proves that this site exhibits "BIAS" and a "DOUBLE STANDARD" toward various well known modern architects.

Frankly, I don't know how Pat knows that about Beau Desert since I seriously doubt he's every played the course much less laid eyes on it and we all know how he feels about the use of photographs when one comments on golf architecture!  ;)


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2003, 01:06:20 PM »
TEPaul,

Thanks for reminding me, the photo from Beau Desert appeared to be the missing piece of the bias puzzle.  If I remember correctly a rather large mound fronted the right side of the green.

Pictures, pictures, pictures.

Did all of those pictures help you discover the lost spine and catching bunker on the right side of # 5 at NGLA, or was it your faithful guide dog, Coorshaw ????  pant, pant, pant  ;D

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2003, 05:51:42 PM »
I would not suggest a tour of Crystal Springs (Burlingame CA) to see a vintage Fowler course.  That place has been rerouted, tweaked, dozered, for an eternity, first due to the Interstate 280 project and then trying to fix the problems created by the first project.  Any Fowler left is probably pretty generic.  On the other hand, Beau Desert looks great!  How far is it from our beloved Painswick?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2003, 06:32:30 PM »
Allegheny CC (R.A.3 1922)

Anyone know anything more about this one? What does "R.A.3" mean?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2003, 06:42:27 PM »
George,

Doesn't that means 3 holes were added in 1922?  Interestingly, I believe Kittleman and Hanse are/were doing some work there at Allegheny.  I'll have to ask.
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Andy Levett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2003, 05:17:02 AM »
Bill,
I've not played Beau Desert but it's north of Birmingham, 75 mainly motorway miles from Painswick - say 1:15 to 1:30 outside peak hours.
I also checked the rail journey on www.thetrainline.com and it's 2:30 from Stroud to Rugeley or Hednesford (probably would have been quicker in the nineteenth century).

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