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Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Master Plans - how many are too many?
« on: July 08, 2021, 09:45:37 AM »
How many master plans are too many, across a 10-20 year time frame?  If the value of a master plan lies in providing an enduring and comprehensive guide to ensure consistency, then why hire a new architect (or even two, in rapid succession) to re-do it before it's fully implemented?  How frequently is this done, and why?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2021, 09:57:28 AM »
Bernie,


I don't know the answer to that, but it happens frequently.  Somehow, there is always the vague notion that your gca doesn't know all he thinks he knows, and the typical progression is from local architect, to regional architect, to famous name (whether overall big name, or one who has made a name in restorations, i.e., Andrew Green, Gil Hanse, and a few others).  And if not hot gca names, then styles and theories also change.


I usually lay out potential implementation options, i.e., 1 year, 2 years, 4-6 years and a max of 9 years.  I used to provide options up to 18 years (i.e., one hole per year) but few courses serious in redoing anything lay it out that far.  In addition, the hole by hole approach is dying.  You just can't get cart path, irrigation or even Better Billy Bunker crews out for a 1-2 hole job, so many courses are doing it by project type, i.e., usually irrigation (and drainage if affected to get all pipes in the ground), greens, bunkers, tees, paths, etc.  Some items like forward tees and tree clearing can be done every year and incrementally since they don't close the hole.


Your question is one that has always steered me away from country club master plans as a rule.  They are very frustrating to me.  Also, I can tell how serious a club is about it by who makes the first call.  If it's the pro or superintendent (especially if new to the course) they may go through with a plan, but have little intention on acting on it comprehensively.   If the club president, long range planning chair, or greens chair calls first, it has a much more likely chance of actually moving forward to construction.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2021, 11:59:22 AM »



Doesn't any new Greens Chairperson and the boards they answer to need a new "Master Plan" with an eager architect signing on so they can enact the changes they want to make but under the guise of some sort of supreme authority that you won't listen to anyway?  ??? :'(

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2021, 12:32:38 PM »
Corey,


You are even more cynical than I am.  Not sure you top JK.....


I guess the answer to the how many are too many question is like the question of how many wives are too many (over a lifetime, LOL, not at once!)  And the answer is, if you do it right the first time, one should suffice.....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 04:20:27 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2021, 10:20:21 AM »
The number of re-restorations going on now is ridiculous.  Of course, this can only happen because they are not really restorations, but “sympathetic restorations “, aka smoke and mirrors.


In reality, most “restoration “ master plans for an old course should be similar, regardless of designer.  The X factor is execution of shaping and finish work, not design.  That’s why my company has always done both.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2021, 01:55:09 PM »
I suppose that as things change, a master plan may as well.  A typical one is bunkering.  If the last master plan was done to reduce bunkers because they washed, a course might reconsider. 


That said, a few master plans done after bunkers became more practical, got redone because the expense of building and maintaining bunkers got more expensive.  Many master plans take a sober look at maintenance and operations costs more now than they did 15-20 years ago.  That would also include better drainage, environmental sensitivity, sustainability, and a closer look at circulation and cart paths, as well as encroaching tree corridors.  Not many architects and even fewer club members really take a look at how cart path layout affects circulation, and to a large degree, maintenance.


Many consider business elements (like attracting more play after the recession) and cost value benefits.


I just finished one where the irrigation system situation had gotten worse since the last master plan, with new water appropriation regulations, etc.  (They never did rebuild the irrigation as recommended 10 years ago, so it was worse, as well)


Some have been "revisited" now that shorter tee options are more desired. 


While semantics to a degree, I like the phrase "revisited" as opposed to new master plan.  The overall goal of most master plans (at least cost effective ones) should be to keep what works, and change what doesn't to fit a specific need, as opposed to just changing out the artwork of one style for another.  As I have said often here, golf architecture is about much more than shaping.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2021, 02:24:38 PM »



Most of the restoration work on classic courses is rote: Tree work, mowing lines, greens expansion. 


I do however differ with the notion about the "x-factor" Tom Doak mentions.  Though I believe it to be true, aren't we "selling" the detail work to those that in the end don't care and even when enacted beautifully, can't tell the difference?


And why spend one iota of time worrying about a bunker lip that is too big, or out of scale without ever once explaining the negative implications of crazy punitive rough? 


I would rather have the out of scale Pam Anderson bunker lips than crazy sand wedges back to the fairway from deep rough that never existed without irrigation. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2021, 03:58:49 PM »
Corey,


If you can post a pic of "Pamela Anderson bunker lips" I would love to see that!


I also found Tom's wording a bit awkward, but it's hard to argue with the idea that the smaller the work scope, the more the details matter, at least IMHO.


That said, one thing I have learned here over the years that many say they are interested in pure restorations, but end up being falling into the trap of being more enamored with the name creating them than the details themselves.  I recall a discussion here of Fazio's restoration (or whatever you wish to call it) of Riviera.  They had the aerial and ground level photos of the bunkers, and from the photos, the shapes looked pretty similar to me.  A few "purists" here argued that in the field, they didn't have the true "3D" of the original bunkers from the very 2D photos.  It might be true, but I always thought they just didn't want Fazio to take over the restoration market, and leave it to the boutique shops that were specializing in that kind of work. 


And, as we have seen more and more of that restoration work, we have seen most who do it move from pure restoration to "sympathetic restoration" which blends attempts at perfect copies to something a bit more practical in modern times, where necessary.


Of course, the fact that there is so much discussion about what restoration is, what is good and bad, etc. just contributes to some clubs doing them over and over again as proponents of some position or another win the day to get work done over to their satisfaction.  I suppose courses built now could, with inexpensive drone surveying, leave a future blueprint for restoration that older courses just couldn't do.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2021, 11:13:17 PM »
I think I'm seeing a trend of clubs wanting a consulting architect to help them over a 5-10 year period and putting him on a retainer to help as they go forward versus having a guy do a master plan.  All this comes about as design/build becomes more common.  Master Plans are more of a marketing effort by guys who don't do design/build.  IMHO..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -23
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2021, 11:40:05 PM »
My answer is two.


You have an architect establish a master plan. Ideally, it was the original one.


From that plan, you have any new hires make adjustments to the original plan. Other than the MPCC Shore course, has anyone seen a course completely reversed from its original?

Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Anthony_Nysse

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2021, 05:53:24 AM »
My answer is two.


You have an architect establish a master plan. Ideally, it was the original one.


From that plan, you have any new hires make adjustments to the original plan. Other than the MPCC Shore course, has anyone seen a course completely reversed from its original?


Didn't RTJ completely reverse Eugene CC?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jim_Coleman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2021, 07:40:05 AM »
    I believe master plans are the height of arrogance.  They are sold under the rationale that once a master plan is adopted, future committees, supers, etc. will not be able to change (read, harm) a particular course on a whim.  But why is one plan adopted at one moment in time given such sacrosanct treatment?  Arrogance.   
   I very much support a golf club (particularly one lucky enough to enjoy a respected classic course) having a respected architect on retainer at all times, and that any material architectural change to the course must come from the architect or be run through him.  Good architects will make the course better over time; bad ones will hopefully be identified and replaced.  Then, and only then, will a club be protected from committees and supers (and even bad architects) making poor decisions on a whim.  Remember, every bad decision by a committee or a super or even an architect was made by someone who truly believed that the decision was in the best long term interest of the club.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 08:27:48 AM by Jim_Coleman »

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -8
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2021, 10:00:36 AM »
I treat Master Plans like I would treat developing a Business Plan for running a business.  How many successful businesses are run without some kind of plan or vision?  Golf clubs need the same.  Master Plans also need to be tweaked from time to time just like Business Plans do as things change.  The clubs/courses I find that have the most issues are the ones that have no plan at all and simply change what they are doing and implementing from new committee to new committee.  But those changes are what keep many of us busy as many times (but not always) they are silly and a complete waste of money.  This is all just common sense.  Your most important asset is the golf course and it needs and deserves both a short and long term plan/vision for its continued growth and success. 


Note:  I just had a club call me yesterday about a Master Plan I did for them 15+ years ago.  In all fairness we have been chipping away at it over the years as money became available.  However, it has been some time and they wanted to do some more work.  I said to them, it is best at this point that we get together and look everything over as a lot of time has passed and we will in all likelihood want to update the plan and our priorities going forward.  They were very happy to hear that and that is what we agreed to do.  Again, this is not rocket science. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 10:05:07 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2021, 11:21:28 AM »
Trust your process. If you have an elected board who is entrusted to make decisions, then well they should be entrusted to make a master plan decision with what they feel is the best architect for the vision and budget they have.


So unless acts of God ( Cedar Rapids CC) happen or the club is not in a financial position to execute, stick to the plan.  Moving the goal posts during the plan is not conducive to success in business strategy. 


In most cases of assessments for member owned clubs these are voted on as well. Let the plan happen.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2021, 02:22:00 PM »
The problem a club runs into is that once a different architect/consultant(whatever term applies) comes on board they are going to want to draw up their own plan. Even if they are on board with the plan in place I think most greens committees have to expect recommendations for some changes. Finally every time a new greens chairman is elected there is potential to shake things up.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2021, 02:45:52 PM »
    I believe master plans are the height of arrogance.  They are sold under the rationale that once a master plan is adopted, future committees, supers, etc. will not be able to change (read, harm) a particular course on a whim.  But why is one plan adopted at one moment in time given such sacrosanct treatment?  Arrogance.   
   I very much support a golf club (particularly one lucky enough to enjoy a respected classic course) having a respected architect on retainer at all times, and that any material architectural change to the course must come from the architect or be run through him.  Good architects will make the course better over time; bad ones will hopefully be identified and replaced.  Then, and only then, will a club be protected from committees and supers (and even bad architects) making poor decisions on a whim.  Remember, every bad decision by a committee or a super or even an architect was made by someone who truly believed that the decision was in the best long term interest of the club.


By that logic, it would be arrogant to believe the original architect had it perfect, too, so blast away.  But you are correct in that maybe the best approach is to make hiring the proper gca for you the no. 1 task.  Changing architects is wasteful, and the right ones should stay with you over time.


The ideal process, I believe then moves on to th big picture items, i.e, club's self view, changes in the market it serves, an analysis of what the infrastructure needs, etc.  Only then do you consider actual design.   I can't see how a one time sit down to do an actual assessment, plot out most likely finances, etc. could be all that bad a thing.  Yes, you need some flexibility, i.e. more or less money is available.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2021, 03:13:37 PM »
I don't know if they are working off a master plan or simply tweaking year by year, but the changes at Newport Country Club are spectacular. LOTS of clearing has opened up both sides of the first hole, and across the road to the right of #4. They also added a second bunker on the left side of 18 fairway because good players now hit it so far that the first bunker wasn't even in play.

The same is true at Kittansett. It started with the tree clearing which, over the last 10 or so years has completely transformed the course. But they've also done some little things (that actually aren't so little), like moving the big mounds on 10 farther down the fairway. Those mounds are now in play whereas in the past you could blow driver right over them.

Again, I have no idea if they are working off a master plan or just identifying bite-sized projects to take on each year. But in both cases, the results are amazing.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2021, 05:39:11 PM »
Jeff:
I’m not trying to bash Tom Fazio or to get any work out of this, but if a club wants to restore their course I would think they’d be better off hiring someone who believes in restoration, rather than a guy who thinks modern work is inherently better.


Now, back to work trying to put back together some Perry Maxwell greens in Oklahoma that someone tore up years ago.  Unfortunately, to your last point, they didn’t do a good “before” survey of what they tore up, making my role here much harder.

Jim_Coleman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2021, 08:15:32 PM »
Jeff:  I absolutely believe it would be arrogant to believe the original architect had it perfect.  Architects constantly make changes to their work, often until they die. Pete Dye certainly did so at the Teeth of the Dog, a course I am quite familiar with. That’s why I say, once the original architect is no longer available, get a good one and work with him to continually improve the course.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Master Plans - how many are too many?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2021, 10:26:31 PM »
Jim, 


We agree.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach