[Garland Bayley]

If you have a hcp higher than scratch the game is already too difficult for you.
Why make it even harder by playing from tees that are further back?
Put your ego and vanity on hold and play from tees further forward.
atb

Come on Dai! As fast as you play, you could play from 8000 yards faster than 95% of scratch golfers.

...
Slow play is caused by slow players,emulating the nonsense they see on TV. and it's a problem for some no matter what tees they play.

So, if you play quick, you can play match play from the back tees, as long as the  course doesn't put up ridiculous obstacles. No need to be a scratch golfer.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,


Sadly, golf is really two different games.  More greens hit is fun.  It doesn't have to result in more three putts, and missing greens statistically results in a chip and 2 to 3 putts, maybe 2.2 putts on average. 


Missing the green statistically causes the hole score to go from 5 to an average of 5+ for C and D players.  According to Broadie, from 30 yards away, the 100 shooter averages 3.7 strokes to hole out from rough, and only 3.3 strokes if chipping/pitching from the fw.  But from 80 yards, which is more likely if average golfers keep playing longer courses, it takes 4.1 strokes from the rough and 3.9 strokes from the fw.  So, shorter holes do help average golfers.


Similarly, while the median leave for average golfers about doubles that of the average PGA Tour pros (i.e., from 100 yards, 24 feet vs 52 feet) average players are relatively close to tour pros on putting leaves from 40 feet - about 4 feet for average golfers and 3 feet for PGA Tour pros.


Statistically, it would seem getting on the green really does help the average golfers score.  Long putting statistics are close, and also statistically, for average golfers their approach shots net them the most strokes gained, and by a long shot.  Designing to hit greens is probably the best equalizer.


Lastly, in checking the stats, sand saves are way lower for average golfers vs pros.  Thus, converting several sand bunkers to grass probably equalizes the challenges.


BTW, the suggestion to play match play is a great one for speed of play, and maybe just letting golfers play.  Any awful shot doesn't even cost you a stroke, it cost you a hole, but keeps play fun, until you lose 9 and 8 or something.

[John Kavanaugh]

We are just now getting past society dictating where many different types of people can play. Telling everyone how to play feels like a step back.

[Jim Hoak]

Misplaced and uncontrolled ego is probably the biggest problem I see in golf.
I remember playing with a jerk who was a 15-20 handicap who asked me where the 280-line was on a hole.  I wanted to tell him that he hadn't seen 280 yards for years if ever.
I am enjoying playing 6000-6200 yards, but I do agree that it tends to raise the handicap since course ratings are in my book overly tied to distance.

[Jeff_Brauer]

We are just now getting past society dictating where many different types of people can play. Telling everyone how to play feels like a step back.

Technically, we are just giving them options, at least at the gca level.  All the course managers typically do is gently persuade, although I think a few set what tees to play by handicap.


I noticed that when playing in Asia, those societies still place an emphasis on macho, with most male players playing either the back or next to back tees, ignoring any suggestion I made that 6300 yards might be more appropriate.

[Ally Mcintosh]

A lot of you seem to think that playing further back is tied to ego.


I play forward every once in a while to remind myself that I can shoot a low a score and that I really am good at golf.


That, my friends, is Ego.

[John Kavanaugh]

A lot of you seem to think that playing further back is tied to ego.


I play forward every once in a while to remind myself that I can shoot a low a score and that I really am good at golf.


That, my friends, is Ego.

Perfect.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Misplaced and uncontrolled ego is probably the biggest problem I see in golf.

I would find it hilarious if somehow golf courses became the last bastion of the macho man.

[John Kavanaugh]

I’m considering joining the over 60 men’s golf league at a L&M course where I have a home. They play the senior tees of course. My 4.2 index translates to a course handicap of +3 from those tees. Being a two man scramble format I won’t be posting scores so I’m stuck. I suppose you could say it’s my ego keeping me from playing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,


I will stick with the premise that shorter courses are more fun for senior men.  As they say, "Your experience may differ."

[Kalen Braley]

This is an interesting thread that I generally agree with although i'm not sure how much its applies to us chop High Cappers.

- Rough is still rough and it remains a bitch to play from it whether you're hitting a 6 iron or 4 iron.
- Water and OB are still extra strokes/time whether you hit into it with a 8 iron or 6 iron.
- Bunkers are still bunkers whether they be fairway or greenside and provide plenty of challenge regardless of which club you used to get into it.
- Ditto for missed greens, they still will provide the same challenge to chip on and/or near the hole.
- And you're still gonna be hitting driver off most tees, the club that goes the furthest offline.

I've played up a set of tees several times and didn't see much variation in my score, even if moving back to 6700 from say 6100 had a much larger effect with so many more long approaches.  But then again, the vast majority of courses I've played only had 1 set of tees under 6000, and that takes a lot of humility to play from the shortest tees on the course

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kalen,


You need to pair this one with the other thread on designing for both high and low handicappers.  No doubt, shorter course doesn't help much if everything you do just kills the misses.


The thing that convinced me I was on the right track with shorter courses was comments from senior and female golfers.  One woman, a good, but shorter hitting layer, played the new tees at La Costa.  They were 4500 yards and she hit 13 or 18 greens, which I thought was great, but she wondered why we didn't lay it out so she could reach all 18? (Sometimes the topo and other factors don't allow it, so I was a bit lax in trying, until that comment) 


Ditto with senior men.  You think they have ego problems with playing at 5400 yards?  They have even bigger ego problems not being able to carry that creek at 140 yards, and then they have the lost $4-5 Golf ball to deal with as well.

[Dave Doxey]

What do you think about the set of tees that you play affecting your handicap?  Course rating are supposed to handle the difference, but I often wonder.

[Thomas Dai]

I am reminded of a Bobby Jones comment. Something about golf being a game played on a five-inch course, the space between the players ears.
Each to their own though.
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dave,


I have seen women and seniors in particular, if they are at a club that plays interclub matches, be very concerned that their traveling handicaps won't work well if their course is made easier.


I suppose ladies in particular don't have to move down to the 4300 yard tees if they are worried, and they can stay back at over 5000 or whatever if it helps that situation.


I don't really consider competitions as much as every day fun for the most players when laying them out, but I suppose other, more competition sensitive gca's would.

[Kalen Braley]

The other twist on this topic is, GCA has a long history of complaining, moaning, whining, etc.  ....that there are too many tee boxes and tee placements on golf courses.  Its usually phrased along the lines of "3 sets of tees ought to be enough for everyone".

So if your tees are set at 5600, 6300, and 6800, do you honestly think anyone playing at 6300 is going to go up and play those forward tees, especially if they're red?     Would it perhaps be better to have 5 sets, adding one at say 4900 and another at 5950 to accommodate/tempt more people to actually move up, both men and women?

[Matt MacIver]

There was a time not long ago when the benchmark for what tee you should play was dictated by how close you could get to 150 yards out from the green, because the course was designed to be a second shot course.

[V. Kmetz]

A NYT article more than 10 years ago had what I felt was a good formula...


Your comfortable full shot 5-iron distance x 36... for me currently that's 170 x 36 = 6120...which seems exactly right in this era.


If one no longer plays a 5-iron, I guess it would be the near equivalent of that role in your current set.

[Garland Bayley]

What do you think about the set of tees that you play affecting your handicap?  Course rating are supposed to handle the difference, but I often wonder.

I play back to lower my index.
If I play forward it goes up.

[Rob Marshall]

What do you think about the set of tees that you play affecting your handicap?  Course rating are supposed to handle the difference, but I often wonder.

I play back to lower my index.
If I play forward it goes up.

Same at my club. I think the rating from the back is too high relative to the regular tees. I shoot the same scores from either tees.

[Mark Pearce]

So this summer I have been playing a lot more golf than usual.  I noticed a very common occurrence in my rounds.  The majority of men play the wrong tees.  I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've seen men playing from 6700 or 7000 and they have trouble getting it over the women's tee box! It slows down play and must make for a miserable round for these guys who think its the "MENS" tee boxes.  I'm about a 7 handicap and hit driver 250 at best and I play between 6000 and 6500. Have you ever been tempted to tell people in front of you that they are playing the wrong tees?  Food for thought

My home club is 6800 from the white tees.  Which are the tees 90% of club competitions are played from, by everyone.  In three balls, medal rounds take three and a half hours.  It isn't the tees that are the problem.

[A.G._Crockett]

The other twist on this topic is, GCA has a long history of complaining, moaning, whining, etc.  ....that there are too many tee boxes and tee placements on golf courses.  Its usually phrased along the lines of "3 sets of tees ought to be enough for everyone".

So if your tees are set at 5600, 6300, and 6800, do you honestly think anyone playing at 6300 is going to go up and play those forward tees, especially if they're red?     Would it perhaps be better to have 5 sets, adding one at say 4900 and another at 5950 to accommodate/tempt more people to actually move up, both men and women?

Kalen,

No need whatsoever for 5 tee boxes; that's just extra maintenance.  The answer is hybrid tees on the scorecard, so that there is a set that plays about 6000 in between the 5600 set and the 6300 set.  I'm always surprised in this day and age when I see a course that hasn't bothered to do this, since all they have to do is submit the hybrid set to the state golf association to be rated, and then include it on the scorecard the next time they have cards printed.  Zero cost...

More options for golfers with no cost to courses is a HUGE no-brainer.

[jeffwarne]

So this summer I have been playing a lot more golf than usual.  I noticed a very common occurrence in my rounds.  The majority of men play the wrong tees.  I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've seen men playing from 6700 or 7000 and they have trouble getting it over the women's tee box! It slows down play and must make for a miserable round for these guys who think its the "MENS" tee boxes.  I'm about a 7 handicap and hit driver 250 at best and I play between 6000 and 6500. Have you ever been tempted to tell people in front of you that they are playing the wrong tees?  Food for thought

My home club is 6800 from the white tees.  Which are the tees 90% of club competitions are played from, by everyone.  In three balls, medal rounds take three and a half hours.  It isn't the tees that are the problem.

+1
On a links, with tall grass and "weather" occasionally.
I doubt there's a lot of "aimpointing" and caddy chat going on

[A.G._Crockett]

I see people saying this, and it just doesn't compute. I don't see this much at all at the course I play most frequently.

My course tips out at 6804. I often don't play the back tees (they're fine, and on some holes honestly the driving angle is better). I see fit and healthy 25- and 30-year olds playing the whites all the time. I play the whites when I play with my 61-year-old friend… or my daughter, who plays the white tees. They're 6052 yards. The blues are 6475 (but you hit hybrid off about four par fours).

I genuinely don't see this much at any of the clubs around me. And I'm going to Sand Valley shortly, and we're trying to drag people back to 6700 yards because they don't seem to understand how far their ball is going to roll - and these are 30-45-year-old guys who drive it 250 on the fly.

In the 90s it seemed en vogue to me to "punish" yourself on the course, but I just don't see it these days. I see people more often than not playing the tees that are pretty good for them.

Do I just live in an area where people are more down-to-earth? Or am I seeing things? Are y'all?

Erik, I agree with you, with two qualifications. 


The first is that often there is a golfer in a group that plays the wrong tees because he doesn't want to go forward and be the only guy up there, so that you might have three guys on the correct set of tees, but one guy really struggling.  That I DO see all the time where I play.

The other is a little bit more "course dependent" and occurs when guys just automatically go to what they think is the same set of tees  that they play at home by yardage or location, either because they don't understand or don't pay attention to the course and slope rating of the unfamiliar course.  The two best examples that I see regularly are True Blue and Tot Hill Farm; guys go to the second set of tees, or play from a familiar yardage, and just get KILLED by a golf course that is actually a ton of fun IF you go to the correct course and slope rated tees.

But like you, I typically don't see a whole foursome of guys playing the wrong tees.  What I do see is guys who hit the ball far enough for the tees they are playing but with no idea where it's headed.  And that wouldn't change if they moved up.

[Dave Doxey]

What do you think about the set of tees that you play affecting your handicap?  Course rating are supposed to handle the difference, but I often wonder.

I play back to lower my index.
If I play forward it goes up.

I found the same.  I wonder is it is the fault of course rating, or that my long game is better than my short game.

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