[Rick Sides]

So this summer I have been playing a lot more golf than usual.  I noticed a very common occurrence in my rounds.  The majority of men play the wrong tees.  I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've seen men playing from 6700 or 7000 and they have trouble getting it over the women's tee box! It slows down play and must make for a miserable round for these guys who think its the "MENS" tee boxes.  I'm about a 7 handicap and hit driver 250 at best and I play between 6000 and 6500. Have you ever been tempted to tell people in front of you that they are playing the wrong tees?  Food for thought

[Stewart Abramson]

Have you ever been tempted to tell people in front of you that they are playing the wrong tees?  Food for thought

We have regular weekend tee times. The fourball in front of us plays from the back tees and rarely reach a green in regulation . We wait for them on almost every hole. We once  asked them to pick up the pace and suggested that they move up to a shorter tee. We have also asked to swap tee times with them. It only served to piss them off.
 

[Jon Sweet]

Control the controllables. That’s my attempted motto although I fail terribly at it. You won’t make a difference. Might as well just sit back. I do recall a bit that I saw on how far people think they hit their clubs. Only the very good players had accurate numbers. Cannot tell you how many guys tell me they hit their 3 wood 280. I just say ok. No point in arguing. Same with being 175 out and a 60 year old guy telling me to hand him the 7. Ego and pride are a hard thing to change.

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s not the wrong tees if you are making money. The nuance of most betting games is outside the grasp of a casual observer.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Control the controllables. That’s my attempted motto although I fail terribly at it. You won’t make a difference. Might as well just sit back. I do recall a bit that I saw on how far people think they hit their clubs. Only the very good players had accurate numbers. Cannot tell you how many guys tell me they hit their 3 wood 280. I just say ok. No point in arguing. Same with being 175 out and a 60 year old guy telling me to hand him the 7. Ego and pride are a hard thing to change.

And you can’t teach common sense.

[John Kavanaugh]

My group plays from tees further back than common sense dictates. They all have higher handicaps than me but hit it much further. Their only shot they have at winning is to play back far enough that I miss as many greens as they do. Not to mention the further you move up the more narrow the landing area.


Speaking of common sense can we all agree that reachable par 5’s slow down play? That is just the beginning.


If you really want to speed a player up you need to become his friend.

[Jon Sweet]

My group plays from tees further back than common sense dictates. They all have higher handicaps than me but hit it much further. Their only shot they have at winning is to play back far enough that I miss as many greens as they do. Not to mention the further you move up the more narrow the landing area.


Speaking of common sense can we all agree that reachable par 5’s slow down play? That is just the beginning.


If you really want to speed a player up you need to become his friend.

There is no slow player on earth that thinks they’re slow. You’re not changing them. They be what they be.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I see people saying this, and it just doesn't compute. I don't see this much at all at the course I play most frequently.

My course tips out at 6804. I often don't play the back tees (they're fine, and on some holes honestly the driving angle is better). I see fit and healthy 25- and 30-year olds playing the whites all the time. I play the whites when I play with my 61-year-old friend… or my daughter, who plays the white tees. They're 6052 yards. The blues are 6475 (but you hit hybrid off about four par fours).

I genuinely don't see this much at any of the clubs around me. And I'm going to Sand Valley shortly, and we're trying to drag people back to 6700 yards because they don't seem to understand how far their ball is going to roll - and these are 30-45-year-old guys who drive it 250 on the fly.

In the 90s it seemed en vogue to me to "punish" yourself on the course, but I just don't see it these days. I see people more often than not playing the tees that are pretty good for them.

Do I just live in an area where people are more down-to-earth? Or am I seeing things? Are y'all?

[John Kavanaugh]

I see people saying this, and it just doesn't compute. I don't see this much at all at the course I play most frequently.

My course tips out at 6804. I often don't play the back tees (they're fine, and on some holes honestly the driving angle is better). I see fit and healthy 25- and 30-year olds playing the whites all the time. I play the whites when I play with my 61-year-old friend… or my daughter, who plays the white tees. They're 6052 yards. The blues are 6475 (but you hit hybrid off about four par fours).

I genuinely don't see this much at any of the clubs around me. And I'm going to Sand Valley shortly, and we're trying to drag people back to 6700 yards because they don't seem to understand how far their ball is going to roll - and these are 30-45-year-old guys who drive it 250 on the fly.

In the 90s it seemed en vogue to me to "punish" yourself on the course, but I just don't see it these days. I see people more often than not playing the tees that are pretty good for them.

Do I just live in an area where people are more down-to-earth? Or am I seeing things? Are y'all?

The little I know you gives me the impression that you look forward to the happiness that playing brings you as you fight the ignorance of life while you aren't. Rose colored range finder so to speak.

[jeffwarne]

I see people saying this, and it just doesn't compute. I don't see this much at all at the course I play most frequently.

My course tips out at 6804. I often don't play the back tees (they're fine, and on some holes honestly the driving angle is better). I see fit and healthy 25- and 30-year olds playing the whites all the time. I play the whites when I play with my 61-year-old friend… or my daughter, who plays the white tees. They're 6052 yards. The blues are 6475 (but you hit hybrid off about four par fours).

I genuinely don't see this much at any of the clubs around me. And I'm going to Sand Valley shortly, and we're trying to drag people back to 6700 yards because they don't seem to understand how far their ball is going to roll - and these are 30-45-year-old guys who drive it 250 on the fly.

In the 90s it seemed en vogue to me to "punish" yourself on the course, but I just don't see it these days. I see people more often than not playing the tees that are pretty good for them.

Do I just live in an area where people are more down-to-earth? Or am I seeing things? Are y'all?

I agree with this.
If you move the tees up for maintenance or variety nobody complains and few even notice.
years ago, on average, people played tees that were far longer in relation to the equipment being used, and I'd say generally "white" tees were longer-as they were one of two men's choices and the tees most played, with the "back" tees not much farther behind.
Now there are three, four or five sets of tees just for men-plus the obligatory combo tees and/or hideous scorecards.
On average I'd say non back tee players play LESS yardage than they did in the 1970's.
Slow play is caused by slow players,emulating the nonsense they see on TV. and it's a problem for some no matter what tees they play.

[John Kavanaugh]

99% of all courses exaggerate the distance from the tees you choose. It's a dirty lie told to the golfer in an attempt to speed up play. This type of breech of trust never works out in the long run.

[Ken Moum]

99% of all courses exaggerate the distance from the tees you choose. It's a dirty lie told to the golfer in an attempt to speed up play. This type of breech of trust never works out in the long run.

This seems to be SOP at some daily-fee or resort courses.  Several I have played recently have tees moved up 50 or more yards on a third to half the holes.


The last time I played Longbow (no longer a Kavanaugh design, I think) it was very noticeable.


It pisses me off because if I post rounds from those tees it artificially lowers my differential for the round.

[jeffwarne]

99% of all courses exaggerate the distance from the tees you choose. It's a dirty lie told to the golfer in an attempt to speed up play. This type of breech of trust never works out in the long run.

This seems to be SOP at some daily-fee or resort courses.  Several I have played recently have tees moved up 50 or more yards on a third to half the holes.


The last time I played Longbow (no longer a Kavanaugh design, I think) it was very noticeable.

very common

[John Kavanaugh]

99% of all courses exaggerate the distance from the tees you choose. It's a dirty lie told to the golfer in an attempt to speed up play. This type of breech of trust never works out in the long run.

This seems to be SOP at some daily-fee or resort courses.  Several I have played recently have tees moved up 50 or more yards on a third to half the holes.


The last time I played Longbow (no longer a Kavanaugh design, I think) it was very noticeable.


It pisses me off because if I post rounds from those tees it artificially lowers my differential for the round.

I think Longbow still is, perhaps you are thinking of Vista Verde where Lehman made some basic non routing changes. Is a Ross ever no longer a Ross?


I owe Garland thanks for pointing out to me that the USGA allows changing the course rating based on actual yardage. Rather than we all being honest and keeping things simple the lies of the course begat more lies by the player. I get it at resorts where you are renting time and space but there is no excuse for owners of private clubs to lie to its members. Often they are one and the same.

[Sean_A]

I often play the wrong tees. It's hard to convince people they aren't good enough for 6700 yards....I have given up. That's why it's awesome to play short courses, knuckleheads can't out vote you to step back. 6000 yards is plenty long enough for me. I bet come Friday I will be playing tees too far back...because its macho.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

If you have a hcp higher than scratch the game is already too difficult for you.
Why make it even harder by playing from tees that are further back?
Put your ego and vanity on hold and play from tees further forward.
atb


Later edit - for future reference purposes see also this thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69935.0.html

[Sean_A]

If you have a hcp higher than scratch the game is already too difficult for you.
Why make it even harder by playing from tees that are further back?
Put your ego and vanity on hold and play from tees further forward.
atb

I knew I was on the wrong tees when I came upon a 240 par 3 over water. Gulp.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

Do I just live in an area where people are more down-to-earth?

That must be it.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you have a hcp higher than scratch the game is already too difficult for you.
Why make it even harder by playing from tees that are further back?
Put your ego and vanity on hold and play from tees further forward.
atb

Have you ever got up in the morning knowing that you need to shoot par to break even? It's work and rarely just a friendly game. I have to be very careful to play from far enough back that I am not a scratch for the sake of my wallet, psyche, friendships and soul.


Any set of tees where your course handicap is 6, which allows for a few lapses of judgment, makes much more sense than scratch.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd love to set up courses and make you guys play from where you could be "scratch". I'd say the course would be at around 1,000 yds for 18 holes. Have fun and hug your kids when you get home early.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have the general impression that men are starting to get the message and playing shorter sets of tees.  This comes from personal anecdotes, i.e., as a kid, my dad wouldn't play a course under 6,000 yards.  Now, during master plans, etc., I find that seniors (you know, guys about my age) avoid playing tees over 5,999 yards, and seem to prefer 5,750 or so.  They still balk at going under 5,000 yards!


Another anecdote which affected me....I was playing Pinehurst no. 2 with Rees Jones not long after his remodel there.  When I went to the typical men's tees, he admonished me and said he was playing the senior tees (he is older than I)  I moved up to be sociable, hit a lot of greens, and the lightbulb went on - golf is fun when hitting far more greens and fringes than not.  And I still play at around 6,000 yards instead of 6,600+. 


Side note, the top tracer tech at many driving ranges now probably contributes to more golfer depression cases than any other thing.  Now, I know for a statistical fact my drives are only in the 216 yards range......and can only justify a few more yards based on the interior guts of the ball probably cost a few yards.  At least, they don't sound great leaving the club, so I presume they are different.


Statistically, driving distance falls into six categories for men, and for all but the top distance range, are going down.  Those seem to be about 295, 258, 216, 170-200 (broad range for senior men) and 140 for recreational females.  BTW, those lower groups can hit further, but only do so about 20% of the time, complicating matters)  BTW 2 - that 216 used to be 229 prior to about 2000.


The "typical" course yardages have been 7250, 6800, 6350, 5750, and <5000.  If we make all tee distances proportional, so everyone is hitting about the same club as pros/scratch, those yardages would be 7250, 6340, 5308, 4669, and 3440.  Basically, even the "A" players could stand to be playing a bit shorter, although I expect some to contest the idea that they should be hitting the same clubs as pros. 


Another way to measure is multiples of tee shots.  Say the scratch player is 25x tee shot distance (i.e. 300 yard drives and 7500 yard courses.) If we make that 26, 27, 28, and 29x drives for other levels of players, because hitting the same clubs seems like too much of a giveaway, it comes out to 7500, 6708, 5832, 5,320, 4,060.  Any way I measure it, from the middle tees forward, courses are generally just too long.


I once wrote an article (actually 2 or 3) for Golf Course Industry along those lines, and was quoted in 2008 by the Wall Street Journal as saying "you course is too damn long!"  I also noted the back tees should be "merely a rumor" to most players, etc.  Short version, as a designer I tend to feel golfers can't play the "wrong tee" but that the tees they choose from are merely in the wrong place.  Golf tradition keeps them where they were, but where they were was based on tradition, i.e. circular and flawed logic.  With more stats in place, I think gca's need to do a better job of placing tees - and designing the holes - for shorter hitters, rather than design from the back tees and ignore other driving distances, while hoping for the best.

[Jay Mickle]

Then NC Sandhills are the poster child for playing from the wrong tees. If 3 in a group of 16 play the tips, they all do. Bad scores are washed away with copious quantities of beer on the 2nd 18.


A few years ago I played #2 with Sean Arble and we moved up to the green tees @5800 vs white @ 6300+. Sean was quick to point out that moving up made the course play more as it is designed as pinch points and various hazards came into play. That move made for a more fun course to play. I could now, with a good drive, be tempted to take on the impossible pins on an approach shot. In the past from the regular men's tees I would hit to the widest part of the fairway, play a second shot to around the front of the green, chip on and hope to 2 putt. Easy bogey possible par.

[Sean_A]

Then NC Sandhills are the poster child for playing from the wrong tees. If 3 in a group of 16 play the tips, they all do. Bad scores are washed away with copious quantities of beer on the 2nd 18.


A few years ago I played #2 with Sean Arble and we moved up to the green tees @5800 vs white @ 6300+. Sean was quick to point out that moving up made the course play more as it is designed as pinch points and various hazards came into play. That move made for a more fun course to play. I could now, with a good drive, be tempted to take on the impossible pins on an approach shot. In the past from the regular men's tees I would hit to the widest part of the fairway, play a second shot to around the front of the green, chip on and hope to 2 putt. Easy bogey possible par.

I was incredibly impressed with those forward tees. The game off the tee was highly engaging. I reckon I was facing the same same choices the pros were from the US Open tees.


Ciao

[Brad Lawrence]

Playing the wrong tees many people means they don’t get to experience of making decisions and playing the course as it was designed strategically.  The further you hit the ball relative to the hole you’re playing, the more likely you are to have to make decisions.  (Being forced to make agonizing decisions is aided by being crooked as well. Ask me how I know).  Playing with shorter hitters, I don’t know if I feel sorry for them or envy in that most holes just seem to be grab a driver and rip it whereas I am constantly having to decide if I’m going over that thing or short of it, around that corner or over it, or hitting the chicken stick two iron.

[John Kavanaugh]

More greens hit in regulation equals more three putts. No fun in that. I thought you guis loved green side options and recoveries.

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