Article on new course at Bandon Dunes

[Patrick_Mucci]

Margaret C,

I'm glad you admitted that you made two mistakes with regard to attributing statements and/or conclusions made by me, that were completely false.

Now let's address the third mistake you made.

Have you read the master plan filed on behalf of Bandon Dunes, as of the date of reading this question ?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

MDugger commented to another party that Bandon Dunes was all about golf, golf and nothing but golf.  I cited the master plan, which Mike Keiser has filed with the necessary authority/ies.

If you will read that plan you will see that more then golf is contemplated.  It's not a shot at Mike Keiser, as you once again erroneously conclude, it's reality.

If you would have read, with any reasonable degree of comprehension, every one of my posts about Mike Keiser, you would have seen that I have been nothing but complimentary with respect to his vision and his work.

Evidently you didn't understand the questions with respect to degrees of earthmoving, and the retention of a minimalist moniker.

With respect to C&C I've taken no shot at them, I only stated that when architects have the LUXURY of chosing their sites, the product will, invariably be better then when an architect doesn't have that luxury and has to design and build on an inferior site.

Does a doctor who only operates on the healthiest patients have a better mortality ratio then doctors who operate on all patients, including the toughest and most difficult cases ?
It's not a shot, it's reality.

And, if you would have carefully read my posts, you would have seen that I said the exact same thing in reply # 105 that Tom Doak said, only earlier.  So maybe you should have more accurately stated, "thank heavens for Pat Mucci, and ditto for Tom Doak"

I trust that you've been reading your patient's charts more carefully and thoroughly then you read my posts  

Please quote and reference what I say, not what you want me to say to serve your interests.

[A_Clay_Man]

, I only stated that when architects have the LUXURY of chosing their sites, the product will, invariably be better then when an architect doesn't have that luxury and has to design and build on an inferior site.

Pat- Are you saying that this project is on an inferior site?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

A skyline green has nothing to do with the view from the green.

It is the view of the green.

It is the view of the green with nothing behind it.... but sky.

It matters not if, behind the green, the fall off is 10 feet or
100 feet.  If nothing is visible behind the green, it is a skyline green.

The 8th at Atlantic comes close to this, yet the falloff is minimal, and if a backround mound was lowered slightly, it would fully qualify as a skyline green.

The next time you play # 18 at NGLA, as you walk up the fairway, even though you can see some distant trees to the left, I think you'll see the similarity between # 5 at The Creek and # 18 at NGLA, both skyline greens.

A Clayman,

I don't believe that I've ever said that to date.
Would you cite for me where I said that ?

But, I'll go on record as saying YES, in some ways it is an inferior site to both Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.

[AWTillinghast]

With respect to C&C I've taken no shot at them, I only stated that when architects have the LUXURY of chosing their sites, the product will, invariably be better then when an architect doesn't have that luxury and has to design and build on an inferior site.

Mr. Mucci
Why do you describe C&C's decision-making process as a LUXURY?  Do you know Bill Coore well enough, if at all, to know how and why he decides which projects to take, etc?
I certainly don't have first hand personal knowledge of the financial conditions of either Tom Fazio & Rees Jones, but one would certainly think that as successful as they have been that they would have at least the same luxury as C&C do to turn down projects and they don't.

Now why do you think that might be?  The answer might be very telling, and it just might have something to do with the fact that not all people are driven by the almighty $$!

[Patrick_Mucci]

AWT,

Because it is.

Just like patient mortality rates for surgeons.
When you take only the healthiest patients, your finished product is invariably better then those who take on all patients.

And while you're asking questions, why don't you post under your own name. K ?

[A_Clay_Man]

PAt- I did not imply that you had said it previously, that is why I asked. But since your now on the record, if C&C do create the greatest course in Bandon, would you say Cooreshaw is on to sump'in?

[SPDB]

Pat -
My point, which you have impliedly conceded to, is that if The Creek were a skyline green, when you arrived at the surface you could go to the back of it and take in that majestic panorama free from any interruption in your vision by trees, similar to the photo you cite in "Golf Clubs of the MGA . Regrettably, and I imagine antithetical to its design, if you walk to the back of the 5th Green and look directly northward, you will be staring into a wall of trees, the same trees that framed the green when you were 140 yards behind, in the fairway.

Most people when they speak of the creek always talk about the view from the 6th tee, I suspect if 5 were a skyline green, they would talk more about the view from 5 green as well. But since it is tucked into a corner of the high part of the course, it is  shielded by trees from the type of panoramic view you the 6th tee affords. Although #5 would be a terrific skyline green, i don't think I would change it. It makes the walk and subsequent tee shot on 6 all the more thrilling, and gives you that "transition" feeling as you move down toward the lower reaches of the course.

I noticed you (again) failed to answer my questions.
I expect a long winded mea culpa upon your return, although I suspect I will get a series of rationalizations qualifying the green as "somewhat skyline" or "effectively a skyline"

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I can recognize when someone's trying to be a smart ass, irrespective of gender, and merely responded in kind.
How many false positions must be attributed to a person before you get a general idea of the objective of the party doing the attributing ?

You keep on confusing the view from the 5th green with the view from the 6th tee, and neither has anything to do with the view from the 5th fairway.

A Clayman,

Re-read my qualified answer again.

No matter how great a course C&C build on that site, nothing can compare to the vistas one receives while playing Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, and that's one of the reasons people come from thousands of miles to see the golf courses, the unique sites.

If Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes were a mile inland, but the same golf courses, do you think that they would enjoy the same popularity,  the same status ??

SPDB,

Let me ask you a simple question. from 100, 150 and 200 yards out in the fairway at # 5, can you see any backdrop land behind the green ?  Any land at all

When you're 100,150 and 200 yards out in the fairway at
# 18 at NGLA can you see any backdrop land behind the green ?  Any land at all   Can you see some tree tops in the distance behind the 18th green at NGLA ??

Both greens were designed as skyline greens

[SPDB]

Both greens were designed as skyline greens

says who? FACTS, pat. We're not arguing that, our dispute centers on whether they are skyline, not were, or designed as...

You've missed totally the point of a skyline green. Seeing land behind the green? Land? You've got to be kidding me. If the absence of visible land behind a green qualified it as a skyline green I think a substantial percentage of greens in the world would then be skyline.

I'll give you a hint of one thing that negates a skyline green...rhymes with "freeze"  

All I'm saying re: Margaret C is take it easy on her, you misattribute/self-servingly twist points of views all the time.

Just for reference, I'm posting this picture (again) which i'll take down after you respond. Notice the green orientation and which way it requires you to direct your shot:
 

[AWTillinghast]

AWT,

your finished product is invariably better then those who take on all patients.

Mr. Mucci
Why the defensiveness?  I didn't say that I didn't agree with the above quote.  I was just taking issue with your comment that C&C has the luxury of working the way they do.  Perhaps C&C get paid much more per job for doing fewer jobs, I wouldn't know, and that's the way they run their business.  Would that be a luxury?
Or maybe they would like to do more work and make more money but they just can't bring themselves to do so for quality control and artistic type reasons.  Would that be a luxury?  I was just curious as to how you would respond to the fact that other architects that have the apparent "luxury" to turn down jobs but don't, while C&C do.

And by the way, if you don't like my anonymity, you have every right to ignore my questions.  Just don't respond.  That is your right!

[TEPaul]

What's this big debate about Creek's #5 green? I was just there---out on the fairway looking at that green. As it is now the green has no skyline effect because there're some massive trees behind the green on the left and on the other side of the drive to the beach club directly behind the green. If all those trees were removed that green would have a great skyline effect from 200yds, 150 yds or maybe even 100 yds out in its fairway. Why? Because there's no ground behind that green higher than the green and when you approach the green you're slightly lower than the green. If there were no trees at all behind that green and to the left of it the green would have an awesome skyline effect and you'd probably have to get almost to the front of #5 green before you saw any land behind it which would probably be Connecticut about 8 miles away across the Long Island Sound.

However, if that 5th green happened to be postitioned about 40 yds right and a bit shorter than it is now (due to the curve of the drive to the beach club) then you'd have a skyline effect from the fairway to it.

[TEPaul]

One of the reasons Coore & Crenshaw may have some kind of luxury in picking sites and projects is everyone knows they basically only do two projects a year and they probably have more demand for their services than they can do. I guess one could call that luxury but I'd call it sensible and quality architectural project management.

On this very website in his Golfclubatlas interview Coore said it's hard enough for them to design and build 36 holes a year and he just can't see trying to do 136 or 236 or 336 or something as other bigger companies do. Coore & Crenshaw's  modus operandi, it seems to me, is that quality architecture takes time--a whole lot of on site time. That's basically why they'll only do two courses a year. Is that a luxury?

[SPDB]

Thank you, Tom for validating what I have been trying to explain to Pat Mucci for going on 6 months. Although I'm certain Pat Mucci won't take your word for it, it must be disconcerting knowing that he's alone in his memory of #5 green, and its skyline effect.

With the knowledge that the trees behind 5 are mature, anybody can tell its not a skyline green from the photo above, don't you agree tom?

Pat - its closing in on you. By analogy, you're, at best dormie and you've just duck hooked one into the trees. I'm sitting pretty in the fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Have you gone mad, relying on the word and memory of TEPaul to support your position ?  That almost certifies that you're wrong.

What about the trees behind and left of # 18 green at NGLA, do they disqualify that green as a skyline green ?

Pictures from the fairway will tell the tale.

Regarding Margaret C, I welcomed her back.  
But, she initiated the conflict by deliberately misrepresenting what I said.  Not once, not twice, but three times.

That would seem like an agenda to me.
My posts were clear in my praise for Mike Keiser, C&C's ability to build any type of bunker requested, and the scope of the master plan on file for Bandon.  

I don't mind taking the heat for what I say, but I do mind taking the heat for what I didn't say, that's disengenuous.

And, Margaret is smart enough to know exactly what she was doing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

AWT,

I'm not defensive, everybody else is when it comes to discussing C&C, minimalism or other sacred topics.

C&C are/have been in demand.

When a variety of developers present them with their project, their property, and they choose only the best, it stands to reason that their product will be superior by the very nature of their selection process.

That's not a slam on anyone, just an assessment of reality.

[SPDB]

Pat - I don't know why you keep bringing up the 18th at NGLA, as if somehow that would be dispositive of a hole that is 50 miles west.   I know how much you love talking about NGLA but try and focus at the task at hand.  

You can't constantly retreat to NGLA as if it were your mother's skirt, which you can hide behind for protection.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Because their creators are the same, and the intent the same, a skyline green.

Now you've got me thinking about the 15th at Piping Rock.
Was it created as a skyline green ?

[SPDB]

Pat - you have no proof that CBM or SR even knew what a skyline green is, let alone that they intentionally designed these greens as such.

Pat - I don't think the 15th is one. I think for the green to be skyline, you have to be able to at least be able to see it. At the 15th, from the bottom of the hill, you can't even see the green. IMO, greens can't be both blind and skyline. I could be wrong, though.

Better argument would be for the 13th, if you hit it all the way down to the base of the hill.

Also, I can only comment if a green is a skyline, not if it was designed as one. Unless there is some evidence of subjective intent by the designer, its merely speculation or imputed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

My guess is that CBM fresh from his overseas journey knew what a skyline green was.

The green at # 18 at NGLA is blind until you hit a certain point in the fairway, probably about 100 yards, when the green reveals itself.

Seeing a flagstick, with nothing but sky behind it, is one of the most intimidating views in all of golf.

P.S.  
I'd be very careful about dismissing my theories on NGLA

[SPDB]

Tom - Don't waste your breath. I've been telling him the same thing for 6 months, yet he stubbornly (or "inimitably," as he might put it), refuses to concede. Even the picture I posted makes it plainly obvious. yet still, here we are with pat not budging. Inimitable, indeed.

Pat,
The same argument holds true for overseas as it does for CBM/SR. Simply because these holes were built, doesn't mean they were designed with the intent to be skyline. For all you know it could have been a coincidence, particularly given the fact that in the treeless sea rushes of Scotland there is often little that clouds the horizon.

Pat - I agree with you that seeing a flagstick with nothing behind it does make for challenging execution. However, I think a fairly clear distinction can be made between those holes that are simply blind, and those that have a skyline effect. You should be able to make out at least some portion of the green, in order to make it a skyline. Don't you agree?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

The 15th green at Piping Rock a skyline green? Hardly, not even close and it never was close. I go way back at that course and #15 wasn't in the realm of a "skyline" green. If it's really #15 green you're thinking of, though, I'm betting what you meant is #15 green is "blind" not "skyline". But if it really is a skyline effect you're thinking of at Piping Rock it'd have to be the 13th green not the 15th. #13 isn't "skyline" anymore but years ago when the trees to the left of the indoor tennis courts about 300 yds away were a lot smaller it may have been sort of close but not an actual "skyline" green--not unless you were standing less than 20 yards from it and right underneath it that is!

[rgkeller]

Could a "skyline green" also be labeled "a green on top of a hill?"

[SPDB]

Could a "skyline green" also be labeled "a green on top of a hill?"

...with nothing behind or framing it except sky.

That is, unless you accept Pat's theory, which subscribes to the notion that it can be 85 foot tall trees.  

[TEPaul]

Pat;

I've found incontrovertible evidence that C.B. designed the 18th green at Piping Rock to be a pure "skyline" green. The green is an almost exact copy of the famous 9th green at the now NLE Molehill Golf & Lunch Club that was bombed in WW2. But those pernicious polo interests at Piping Rock screwed up C.B again and built the damn clubhouse right behind C.B's "sklyine" green and ruined it.

[TEPaul]

"Could a "skyline green" also be labeled "a green on top of a hill?"

rg:

It could indeed provided that when approaching that green on top of a hill from the fairway there's nothing to be seen behind that green except sky! However, if something such as the Snoopy blimp happened to be hovering behind that green then it must temporarily NOT be considered a "skyline" green or in proper golf terminology it must be considered a TNASG (temporarily not a skyline green).