[Thomas Dai]

This isn’t the same as playing hickories!
I’m thinking of steel shafted wooden headed ‘woods’ and blade irons/wedges made circa 2-3+ decades ago.
Anyone play such? I believe there’s a bit of a following in Aussie. And has playing such highlighted to you any particular aspects of architecture, construction, maintenance, set-up etc?
Atb


PS -
I’ve been occasionally playing this way myself for a while now.. A couple of ‘woods’, 3 or 4 blade irons, a wedge and a putter all in small carry bag. No retro era would ball though, unfortunately, so use a soft compression modern ball instead. Usually I play from a forward tee and find my scores and number of shots played equates pretty much to playing from tees that are further back with modern equipment. A shorter walk and a quicker game too.

[jeffwarne]

My son, a lefty, carries a wooden driver he uses for the gap between his 3 iron and 5 wood.
he bought it for 25 cents in a thrift shop.


Evidently he's much more "athletic" with his Rogue driver

[Rob Marshall]

My son, a lefty, carries a wooden driver he uses for the gap between his 3 iron and 5 wood.
he bought it for 25 cents in a thrift shop.


Evidently he's much more "athletic" with his Rogue driver

That is funny!

[Duncan Cheslett]

I'm a member of a group of Old School Ping enthusiasts and last week took part in the inaugural "Ping Classic" at Gainsborough.


The rule is that all clubs must date from pre 2000 but most are from earlier than that. Eye 2's are the most common choice. It was striking that iron play is virtually no different than with more modern clubs - for all the marketing hype things have not actually progressed that much in the last 30 years.


The big difference is with the woods. Flush an old wooden driver right out of the middle and it will fly as far as a modern driver with probably more run. The other 95% of shots however, could go anywhere!


I often use a few of my old Eye 2 irons and woods in a pencil bag around Cavendish of an evening. It is immensely satisfying and after a bit of practice I've noticed little difference in scoring than with my modern set.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

My club has an annual hickory open competition, but last year they introduced a competition for the pre-metal wood era clubs, such as persimmon and laminated woods. I'm not sure about the conditions regarding the irons, but I think if you had clubs manufactured in the early 1980s, you were allowed to play.


I have an old set of Confidence Xebex irons with square grooves from about 1985. I don't think they would be acceptable.    Those irons used to destroy Titliest balatas.

[jeffwarne]

I'm really getting old if Ping Eye 2's are considered retro.


Today's game improvement irons  have the rebound effect that actually make them more difficult to control distance, especially from the rough, and require the use of multiple wedges given that some sets have wedges at 39 degrees!!!
Not sure how much of an advantage they provide over an Eye-2(wonderful clubs), other than being able to say you hit a wedge from where you would've hit a 7 or 8 iron 30 years ago,
I did a fitting with a guy with Rogue irons a couple of years ago and the 7 iron was going the same distance as his 5 wood!!!
Needless to say he couldn't get the 5 or 6 iron in the air but he jumped on that bandwagon.


The modern woods are the real difference with face caving thin faces, longer and lighter shafts, combined with a ball that performs like a Top Flite of Pinnacle of that era off the tee.
Gonna have to disagree with Duncan's take there, especially at higher speeds-huge, huge carry and roll differences(vs wood and balata),-especially when playing in the wind-- especially for someone who fades it-which previously was an almost distance no-no except for the elite.




My go to's would be 1970's era Wilson Staffs irons and woods which I played  for 20 years.
Bullseye putter, WS sand wedge with some bounce ground off the heel.
A few years ago I took out my Bulls-eye and made everything but three weeks later I was back to my trusty B-60(30 years old so hardly modern)
I still have my laminated Wilson Staff Driver-never really had a persimmon I loved(too expensive then $400-$500 even then for a really good one)
Now I buy persimmon drivers on ebay for $10-50

[Ben Hollerbach]

There is a group called the Eternal Summer Golf Society that promotes the play of Persimmon and classic golf club, (1930's-1990's).


They hold an event called the Oil Hardened Classic that is persimmon and blades only. I believe they have plans to expand and encourage like minded players to hold meet ups, but Covid postponed some of those plans.

[Thomas Dai]

Ping Eye 2’s came out in about 1982. That’s nearly 40 yrs ago so I guess relatively retro. Can’t immediately think of another model of iron of such a vintage that is still regularly seen in folks everyday ‘play bags’. I recall the late 1980’s first BeCu version were ball shredders.
Love the thought of the Ping retro event Duncan mentions and Bens mention of the ESGC.
Lots of quality equipment of previous eras still available on eBay at pretty reasonable prices. Shame that golf balls of that era aren’t still easily available though.
Atb


Some crackers here - ….


eBay persimmon woods - [size=78%]https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=persimmon+golf&_sacat=0[/size]


eBay vintage blade irons - [/size][size=78%]https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=vintage+blade+irons&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=old+blade+irons&_osacat=0[/size]

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Around 1989 or 1990, the old Clery's department store in Dublin had a small golf section in their sport department. One day I saw that they were selling Wilson Staff Persimmon woods for just £30 Irish pounds. I bought one and came back another two times and bought 2 more. I don't know if they were a bargain, but I thought they were really nice drivers. I had previously bought a Persimmon Dunlop Maxfli Pro Special for £90 Irish pounds at the Irish Open. Persimmon woods just didn't cope well with the damp Donegal weather, so the heel and toe ends of the face tended to chip/crack and lose small bits of wood.

I still have an old Ping one iron, even though I had no business having one. If you could play it, then you could call yourself a golfer; I never could manage to hit it well . One of the highlights of watching the Irish Open at Royal Dublin, was viewing the players hit 1-iron off the 18th tee. I could sit for hours watching them hit such lovely flighted shots.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Ping Eye 2’s came out in about 1982. That’s nearly 40 yrs ago so I guess relatively retro. Can’t immediately think of another model of iron of such a vintage that is still regularly seen in folks everyday ‘play bags’. I recall the late 1980’s first BeCu version were ball shredders.
Love the thought of the Ping retro event Duncan mentions and Bens mention of the ESGC.
Lots of quality equipment of previous eras still available on eBay at pretty reasonable prices. Shame that golf balls of that era aren’t still easily available though.
Atb

For golf balls, I've found the Wilson Duo line to feel very close to an old balata. They don't generate as much spin but give you a similar experience. The version 1 of the Kirkland Signature 3 piece ball is super high spinning, but a bit firmer on the cover.


Looking for older balls, the Srixon Hi-Brid was one of the last wound balls on the market, It had a large core surrounded by a thin wound layer. Another option is to look for balata covered solid core balls like the Strata ML Balata.

[BHoover]

I have been doing quite a bit of playing with steel-shafted persimmon woods and blades. I find that I’ve been having more fun when I’m playing with the old clubs and focus on hitting good shots rather than trying to make a score.

For woods, my personal favorites are a few MacGregor Eye-O-Magic woods from the 1950s. I also have a Toney Penna Mod 1 driver that I can hit well.

For irons, I switch between a set of Ben Hogan Apex Redlines from the late 80s, a set of MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Muirfields from the mid-80s, and a set of Wilson Staff Dynapowers from 1971. I put a Wilson Dynapower dual wedge in the bag for my SW, and it produces better bunker shots than my modern wedges. I’ve actually been playing these blade irons more consistently than my modern AP2s.

The biggest adjustment for me, particularly with the woods, is trying to keep the clubface open through impact. I normally play a draw, but with persimmon woods I need to focus on trying to hit a fade to avoid a hard left duck hook. But when I hit a solid drive, the feeling of satisfaction is better than anything I hit with a modern driver. On a fairly firm course, I find that a solid tee shot is comparable to my modern tee shots. The ball flies lower but it has a lot of roll out in the fairway.

As for the ball, I tend to play a modern low-compression ball. The Bridgestone e6, Wilson Duo Soft, and Bridgestone RXS have worked well for me. I do have a few sleeves of pristine balata balls but I’m saving those for a special occasion.

I have played a couple of the “virtual” Oil Hardened Classic events put on by the Eternal Summer Golf Society. Those have been a lot of fun, and I’m looking forward to future in-person gatherings. I’m also trying to put together a few vintage club events at my club. It’s fun playing the old clubs, but it’s even more fun in the company of others.

[Cal Seifert]

I play with Ping Eye 2+ irons that are likely older than me. I find them the best balance of game improvement irons while still being somewhat workable. The amount of offset was crazy to me at first but I have gotten used to them.  I know a lot of people swear by the eye 2 wedges, especially in bunkers but they just did not cooperate with me and I use more recent Cleveland wedges.

[jeffwarne]

For woods, my personal favorites are a few MacGregor Eye-O-Magic woods from the 1950s. I also have a Toney Penna Mod 1 driver that I can hit well.



.

amazingly, 1950's persimmons were the go to clubs of the 70's and 80s' too-for those who could afford them.
Imagine paying $500(inflation adjusted $1500?) for a 30 year old driver now

[Thomas Dai]

For woods, my personal favorites are a few MacGregor Eye-O-Magic woods from the 1950s. I also have a Toney Penna Mod 1 driver that I can hit well.

amazingly, 1950's persimmons were the go to clubs of the 70's and 80s' too-for those who could afford them.
Imagine paying $500(inflation adjusted $1500?) for a 30 year old driver now

Imagine in 30 yrs time paying a bunch of cash for some by then vintage 460cc headed, 45” graphite shafted, designed on a computer, mass produced in a factory club that was replaced by a newer version of same only with slightly different paintwork and logo badges within a year of first coming to market! Not!
Atb

[BHoover]

For woods, my personal favorites are a few MacGregor Eye-O-Magic woods from the 1950s. I also have a Toney Penna Mod 1 driver that I can hit well.

amazingly, 1950's persimmons were the go to clubs of the 70's and 80s' too-for those who could afford them.
Imagine paying $500(inflation adjusted $1500?) for a 30 year old driver now

There’s a reason those clubs were played so long — MacGregor used old-growth persimmon that was incredibly dense and durable. Jack Nicklaus played the same MacGregor Tommy Armour 693 3-wood, which was made in 1950-51, from 1958 until the early 1990s. In 1992, Fred Couples and Nick Faldo each won majors playing MacGregor M85 drivers from 1953-56.


How long does a club stay in a pro’s bag these days? Maybe a few years, at best. But no one is playing a 40+ year old club!


These clubs are every bit as playable now as they were in the 1950s. For those who have never experienced the joy of hitting a shot with a persimmon wood, I can’t recommend it enough.

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of other aspects to consider when playing with retro woods, real wooden woods, are trajectory and roll. And how over the last few decades the trajectory and roll of shots has altered with changes in equipment and how things have also been impacted by the likes of approach/fairway/rough irrigation within course design and set-ups too.
Jeez a low, chasing draw with a persimmon club when combined with a burnt out and ultra-firm fairway wouldn’t half bounce and roll and roll and roll and roll. And such conditions, and the opposite when wet and damp, impacted play by permitting variable options in tactical judgement and shot making skills.


And another thing, hardpan and near hardpan and tight lies.
Where have they gone? Once they were a feature of the game, even on parkland courses in summer, and skill and judgment was needed in playing shots from these kind of lies. Likely changed club design too, it could be argued that it’s one of the reasons for the demise of blades and the greater use of wide soled cavity backs  … shots played with thin blades from tight lies is one thing, but with a wide soled cavity back quite another … once upon a time a pitching wedge had a narrow sole and a leading edge that sat very close to the ground. And playing from and judging flight and spin from hardpan and tight lies was a skill.


Retro’s can also include the small headed metal headed Drivers and fairway clubs available from circa the early 1980’s. Models often made by same manufacturers who now make 460cc Drivers and various fairway/hybrid/rescue clubs and introduce to the market seemingly similar but new version models every few months.


There’s a lot to be learnt or recalled from occasionally playing retro equipment. And it can be fun too.


Atb

[Ken Moum]

There’s a reason those clubs were played so long — MacGregor used old-growth persimmon that was incredibly dense and durable.

As a "collector" of persimmon woods for three or four decades, I used to think that too.  But after seeing a lot of those old MacGregors fail the same way as the newer ones did, I came up with a theory.


When pros were paying $300+ for 30-year-old woods they were getting woods that had been selected by survival of the fittest.  IOW, the ones they were buying were survivors that had superior wood.  They less dense and durable ones had long ago failed.


But living in small towns in the Midwest I had access to and saw a bunch of woods that hadn't been played as much, and weren't in places the pros would see them.  There were plenty of case of failure.


Heck, one golf repair shop in South Dakota saw so many that they invented a way of replacing the toe section of the face by drilling holes into it and casting a clear epoxy cap over it.  Then they'd shape the epoxy to replicate the original toe. 


I tried cutting the damage off of one gluing on a piece of walnut to replace it.  Turns out walnut, while pretty dense, is no match for a golf ball, not even a balata one. It actually left dimples in the wood.

[Peter Pallotta]

It seems to me that in terms of performance the club that's changed the least then to now is the 4-5 wood (c. 16-18 degrees). My run of the mill Hogan laminate seems to fly as far as my 8 year old Ping. I'd like to understand the physics/science of that.
A few years ago I would've said that iron technology was what had changed the least (stronger lofts aside), and that a blade then was a blade now. But now I don't think that's true. The launch angles and spin rates relative to loft have changed a lot -- a new 5 has the loft of a 4 but flies like a 3 while landing like a 7; but also the bounce/sole grinds have changed even more. It feels to me that a 1999-2000 Hogan blade is easier to hit than a 1970s Hogan, and that just about any blade from 2020 is more forgiving (turf interaction wise especially) than either.

[Sean_A]

A couple of other aspects to consider when playing with retro woods, real wooden woods, are trajectory and roll. And how over the last few decades the trajectory and roll of shots has altered with changes in equipment and how things have also been impacted by the likes of approach/fairway/rough irrigation within course design and set-ups too.
Jeez a low, chasing draw with a persimmon club when combined with a burnt out and ultra-firm fairway wouldn’t half bounce and roll and roll and roll and roll. And such conditions, and the opposite when wet and damp, impacted play by permitting variable options in tactical judgement and shot making skills.


And another thing, hardpan and near hardpan and tight lies.
Where have they gone? Once they were a feature of the game, even on parkland courses in summer, and skill and judgment was needed in playing shots from these kind of lies. Likely changed club design too, it could be argued that it’s one of the reasons for the demise of blades and the greater use of wide soled cavity backs  … shots played with thin blades from tight lies is one thing, but with a wide soled cavity back quite another … once upon a time a pitching wedge had a narrow sole and a leading edge that sat very close to the ground. And playing from and judging flight and spin from hardpan and tight lies was a skill.


Retro’s can also include the small headed metal headed Drivers and fairway clubs available from circa the early 1980’s. Models often made by same manufacturers who now make 460cc Drivers and various fairway/hybrid/rescue clubs and introduce to the market seemingly similar but new version models every few months.


There’s a lot to be learnt or recalled from occasionally playing retro equipment. And it can be fun too.


Atb

I come across plenty of hardpan. You aren't looking hard enough. Mind you, hardpan usually means shit golf because the ground cracks up and shit grows. It's zero fun when the rough offers a consistently better lie than the fairway.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

"Mind you, hardpan usually means shit golf because the ground cracks up and shit grows. It's zero fun when the rough offers a consistently better lie than the fairway."

Bring back the rut iron!

https://www.golfcompendium.com/2020/09/rut-iron-track-iron-golf-club.html

[Thomas Dai]

I come across plenty of hardpan. You aren't looking hard enough. Mind you, hardpan usually means shit golf because the ground cracks up and shit grows. It's zero fun when the rough offers a consistently better lie than the fairway.
Ciao

Sounds rather like an issue of where one hits the ball … and of ones eyesight too, even if one is looking hard(pan) enough.
Not sure much grows in hardpan though. No moisture, no growth is kinda why it’s hardpan.


Peter,
How does your 16*-18* laminate Hogan play in comparison to your 8 yr old Ping in terms of trajectory, dispersion and forgiveness on less than perfect shots?


Atb

[Ken Moum]

How does your 16*-18* laminate Hogan play in comparison to your 8 yr old Ping in terms of trajectory, dispersion and forgiveness on less than perfect shots?


Atb

My LEL is something around 20 degrees.  (LEL being the Lowest Effective Loft for getting the ball airborne and carrying the optimum distance.)


Given that, I haven't carried a fairway wood with less loft than that for at least three decades.  Among those that I have used are several persimmon four woods, a Ping Eye2 5 wood, A composite-head Yonex clone 5 wood, several metal woods with 20 degrees of loft, and for the last several years a La Jolla Knife 5 wood.


All with lofts at or close to 20 degrees.


I have tried mightily to replace that Knife with something newer and "better" but it has an unnaturally low CG and I've stuck with it through several shaft changes.


A couple of months ago I used some credit I had at AZ Golfworks for clubs they'd sold and picked up a Ping 410 5 wood and have been playing with it since then.


Today, the Knife went back in the bag.


So finally, to answer your question, there's seems to be no real performance difference between them. 


I have the Ping and at least one persimmon 4 wood (A Hiro Honma) in storage halfway between South Dakota and Arizona so I won't be able to test them until later this year.


The new Ping looked like it was going to be a world-beater, it's 18* and can be adjusted 1.5* weak, but it looks like the low CG of the Knife is going to win again.  (FWIW, I have 7, 9, and 11s in the Knife, too.)


As much As I'd like find a few more yards off the fairway, at my age (73) and meager clubhead speed, I appear to be gaining zilch from more modern technology. 


In fact, when I was switching back and forth between wood and metal, I found the low CG of a wood head with a brass soleplate to be more important than whatever perceived benefits I got from metal woods. Until I found the Knife, that is.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()