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Karl Jensen

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Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« on: June 29, 2021, 09:14:08 AM »
The Toledo Country Club website credits two time Open champion Willie Park Jr. as having originally designed their golf course. This may be partially true. Herbert J. Tweedie laid out Toledo CC's original nine holes in the late 1890's along the banks of the Maumee River. It wasn't until 1917 - 1918 that Willie Park Jr. rebuilt the course. I don't know if the course went from nine to eighteen holes at that time due to World War 1.


Anyone know anymore?


Toledo Country Club article, 1909 Spalding's Official Golf Guide



Toledo Country Club mention, 6 Dec 1917 New York, NY Sun newspaper

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2021, 03:02:27 PM »
I haven't played there for at least ten years but always thought of it as a Park, Jr.  When I was there, it still had a half dozen old push up greens that looked like early last century greens, mixed in with the holes that Art Hills had modernized.


I took a quick look at historic aerials, and it appears the south end of the course may have had a different designer, but I can't be sure.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2021, 01:53:14 PM »
 8)  Karl,


If you're newspaper researching TCC, have you looked in the Toledo Blade's archives from that period?  I can ask a buddy who belongs to TCC and/or I'll be there in early august, so I might be able to check any history that may be available in pro shop or hanging on the walls... I haven't been there in over 50 yrs... so would be interested to take a quick look.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 01:56:59 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Karl Jensen

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2021, 02:45:06 PM »
Thanks Steve,


For the suggestion of the Toledo Blade newspaper. I see that the Google News Archive has 1890s to 2000s editions available for online viewing. Trouble is their search feature is horrible and you need to know an approximate date and search the articles page by page. I have written the Toledo CC staff and have yet to see a reply of interest.


Br, Karl

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2021, 03:48:27 PM »
I have seen Willie Watson's name on this site tied to renovations and expansions of Toledo CC in 1909.  If the search feature is used it is easy to find.


I thought I also remembered that Tom MacWood posted ties to Watson.


Crazy to think I grew up in Toledo and never played the course once.


Chris


Steve Lang

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2021, 09:23:59 AM »
 8) Karl, 
You know that there were other newspapers around as Toledo was really going big time industrializing as the 20th century unfolded. 


The Toledo Commercial was published 1892 - 1900, preceded by Toledo Daily Commercial, 1885 - 1892  and succeeded by The Toledo Times, 1900-1926.  There ws also the combining of things with the Toledo bee into the Sunday time-bee...  The Blade just outlasted them all... copies can be found in places other than the Blade Vault.


Toledo's Attic.org has some great stuff like the old Toledo Topics magazines from mid 1920's, some of which they're digitized.  Golf Gossip was always a top interest in that publication...


317-192605-toledotopics  check out the Good Fellows Golf Club Companionability Scorecard in the May 1926 issue... maybe it should be brought back into use!
 
and the Toledo District Golf Association (1921 to present ) has some resources.. I see they just had a better ball tourney at TCC, some pics in the Twitter link

https://twitter.com/ToledoGolf/status/1407736683500613641?s=20


Chris,
You know that Toledo's privates were very private from their beginnings, "far away enough from the masses, but reachable for the  workers,"  like for TCC, Inverness, Heather Downs, & Sylvania CC.  In polite society reporting, the TCC was simply referred to as The Country Club...  we used to call Ottawa Park "The Club"






« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 09:38:11 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Dan Grossman

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2021, 11:46:41 PM »
I played TCC quite a number of times as a junior as I had a good friend who was a member. It was always enjoyable, very little play. As I got older, I always struggled a bit to get my arms around the architecture. I think it was fiddled with by folks over the years.


Sylvania CC was always my favorite. I would love to go back now as I hear they have removed trees.  Same with Heather Downs.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2021, 11:24:00 AM »
Toledo plays an interesting role in the early years of golf in America, particularly in the distinction between public and private courses.  Mike Cirba can probably add a good more detail to the story, but the gist of this tale is that the Toledo GC (not the CC) was denied admission to the USGA around 1901 because the club played on a public course (Ottawa Park GC aka Toledo Municipal GC).  In response, there was a brief movement by the club to form an organization that would compete with the USGA.

The concept of a private club playing on a course that it did not own was not uncommon in the 1890's and 1900's.  Just about every public course in the country had private clubs associated with them that used the grounds but may have had a separate clubhouse for use of the members.  There's an argument that the USGA's stance on these types of clubs is the origination of the ideology that created the differences we see between golf in the US and across the pond and the concept of a "club" in both locales.

As for the history of the Toledo CC, the Tweedie reference is the first I've seen for his involvement with the course.  Here are the reference points I have for an investigation of the club's architectural history:

1899 Golf Guide - Club organized in 1897 with a 9 hole course that was laid out by F. E. Roff in the Spring of 1898.
May 7, 1899 Inter Ocean - Noted as a potential member of the WGA.
1900 Harpers - Organized in 1898 and has a 9 hole course that was laid out by F. E. Roff in the Spring of 1898.
1901 Harpers - Club organized in 1897 and has a 9 hole 2,130 yard course.
1902 SOGG - Club has a 9 hole course.
1902 Golf Guide - Club organized in 1897 and has a 9 hole 2,130 yard course.
May 2, 1903 Fort Wayne Daily News - Club purchased additional land which will be converted into links.
Jan. 1905 Golfers Magazine - Club took an option on 60 adjacent acres with plans to expand.
April 1905 Golfers Magazine - Club declined to exercise the option.
1908 Golfers Guide - A 9 hole 3,150 yard course.
1909 SOGG - Course originally laid out by Tweedie.
May 1914 Fargo Forum and Daily Republican - William Watson laid out the new course in Toledo.
1916 Annual Guide and later guides - Club organized in 1894 and has an 18 hole 6,400 yard course.
Dec. 6, 1917 The Sun - Willie Park engaged to rebuild the course.
Jan. 1919 Golfers Magazine Ad - Willie Park designing a course in Toledo.
1920 Watson Ad - Notes he laid out the course.


From the above we can surmise:


1.  Course first laid out around 1897/98 by F. E. Roff.
2.  Course expanded around 1903.
3.  Additional 9 holes added prior to 1916, perhaps by Watson around 1914.
4.  Rebuilt by Park around 1917.


Whether Tweedie did the original work in 1897 or redid the course around 1903 is unclear. 


There is certainly more to the story to be discovered.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 11:28:19 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Karl Jensen

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2021, 12:15:19 PM »
Thanks Sven for the deeper dive.


You have peaked my curiosity about who was F. E. Roff.


Karl

Karl Jensen

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Re: Toledo Country Club - A Herbert J. Tweedie layout
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2021, 12:23:26 PM »
Sven,


Here is a bio on Roff.



FRANK E. ROFF, one of Toledo's native sons and influential business men, was active in the management of the Street Railway Company for ten years, and is now President of the Crescent Livery Company.  He is an active member of the Toledo Club, a prominent organization, and is also a member of the Masonic fraternity, belonging to Sanford Collins Lodge.
     The father of our subject, Charles B. Roff, a native of New Jersey, was born in Essex County about 1818.  His parents were Stephen and Mary (Ball) Roff who both died in the Empire State.  Charles B. Roff was a hardware merchant after coming to Toledo, in the year 1854.  He was a representative man, a leading Republican, and served in the City Council for two terms.  His death occurred when he had reached his sixtieth year.  His wife, who was before her marriage Miss Clara Manley was born in Richfield Springs, N. Y., and is now living in her native state.  She became the mother of two sons, one of whom is now traveling in Europe.
     The birth of Frank E. Roff occurred Oct. 24, 1859, and he remained under the parental roof until his father’s death.  He received an unusually fine education, as after leaving the Toledo public schools he pursued his studies at Hellmuth College of London, Canada, for two years, after which he went to Russell’s School, at New Haven, Conn.  He then entered Bradford Seminary in Middletown, and later was enrolled at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
     His father had investments in the Toledo Street Railway, and the young man after leaving college returned to look after his business affairs.  Having been blessed with the qualities necessary to the achievement of success, he has prospered and is well-to-do.  His parents were formerly members of Trinity Church, which he also usually attends, although he is not a member of any congregation.
Source: Portrait & Biographical Record of City of Toledo and Lucas and Wood Counties, Ohio. Chicago: Chapman Publishing Company, 1895 ~ Page 368

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