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Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Bunker positioning
« on: June 23, 2021, 03:35:01 AM »
Given all the conversation about bunker style, I thought a deep-dive on bunker positioning would be worth it.


Bunkers serve different purposes and indeed different courses use bunkers for different overarching purposes… but please give examples of holes and courses where bunkers really do affect play time and time again. And consider what is trying to be achieved. Also identify excellent courses where the bunkering is a little repetitive.


If this thread just turns in to another list then it should be killed. Reasoning and descriptions necessary.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2021, 05:12:42 AM »
Ally, this is a really interesting topic. I'm glad you brought this up.

I like to think of playing golf as a strategic exercise where you need to plan your way around. You should have tee shots where you gain some advantage in taking on a bunker. In other situations, you need to drive as close as you can to a bunker or play short of them.

A course that doesn't get a lot of love here is Royal Lytham & St. Annes. Some point to the number of bunkers as being an indication of how mediocre the land and design are. Lytham is my type of course. You are given opportunities off the tee and you need to steer your way around. It's a must on every tee that you think about what you're going to do; you don't just pull out the driver and hit it down the middle.

One thing that disappoints me is that on so many courses, hitting it down the middle is all you need to do. I don't advocate that every course has 4-5 holes with centre-line bunkers in the landing area on par 4s and 5s, but some variety is needed. I also get tired of seeing greens with one bunker short-left and one bunker short-right of the green. There isn't much variety nowadays, it's the usual bunkers left and right on the fairway and at the green.

While I really like Portmarnock (a course you know well :D ) I think some of the bunker positioning lacks imagination. For example the 3 fairways bunkers on the left of the 14th, and the 17th. The same with the 4th; four groups of two bunkers, all basically the same. If the bunkers weren't there, you'd end up in the rough. What is the thinking with these bunkers? I'd like to see some of them moved inwards.

I can see where dotting a course with bunkers goes very wrong; the 18th at Balmedie looks like a battlefield in Flanders in 1917. But other courses like TOC do it so well.

I think the bunkering on the 15th at Birkdale works very well. There's a bunch of bunkers that need to be navigated with your second shot. It's a confusing shot to play, as it's difficult to figure out how they are positioned, when you're faced with the shot.

Bunker positioning nowadays is almost exclusively about punishing the misdirected or misshit shot. It shouldn't be just that; you should be enticed to try and carry a bunker. If you fail, you end up in it and take your punishment. If you carry it, you should experience some joy and get some advantage. 

« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 07:47:11 AM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2021, 05:27:44 AM »
Good first post, Donal.


I was going to wait for a while before re-posting but seeing as you brought up Portmarnock, I’ll quickly point out that some of the bunkering there in tandem with subtleties in the green drive many of the most strategic golf holes I know (more on that later).


However I do agree with you that the 4 nests of 2 bunkers on the outside of the 4th dogleg look a little incongruous and do seem to be just there to cover all bases. They play their part in the hole however from a strategic point of view. 14 is probably one bunker too many on the inside. 17 you have read wrong if you are talking about the two up near the green. They are positioned that way in to the ridge to aid the deception. Most people believe this is the green site when in fact it is 40 yards beyond. The fairway (drive) bunkers also work well here with decisions to be made based on wind primarily.


Like your points on Lytham. I haven’t been there however.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 09:32:10 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 05:56:18 AM »
You're right  :D ; I got it wrong about the 17th. I was thinking of the two bunkers on the left that come into play on the tee shot. I haven't see Portmarnock since Ian Woosnam won the Irish Open, so I was relying on aerial images. I'm probably being a bit harsh as the view from the tee is very different to what you see from a Google Maps aerial. It's not just about how the bunkers are positioned from overhead, it's the view from the tee and how they appear to the player and mess with his/her mind.



 

jeffwarne

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Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 08:42:01 AM »
In the US this seems to have gotten out of control in the Dark Ages-bunker non strategic left/right fairway and green-became common and was simply copied by many mom and pop operations.
Sadly, some of those architects had kids who were embraced by governing bodies and the theme just won't quite die.


In the past 10-15 years I have seen a number of UK/Ireland courses add many pot bunkers, to holes where there are already substantial and handsome land features.The odd one doesn't phase me. but their persistent use does render many of the natural landforms meaningless, and the game becomes penal bunker avoidance, not strategic placement.


In the US I see too many courses with massive amounts of sand, allowing unimpeded recovery for good players and contributing mightily to photo opps, torture of hackers and increased budgets


I'd just prefer to see less sand in general but the sand out there be occasionally penal and random enough to be considered, often with opportunities for recovery-but random enough where "get in the bunker" is never yelled


There are just so many other features that could be used for interest and texture that are completely out of vogue. Trees, ditches, dry creek beds, broken ground,native areas.Sure they all have to be maintained as do bunkers.


I'm sure it's a nice course, but I got dizzy watching all the sand at Congaree.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 08:57:40 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Dan_Callahan

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 08:50:02 AM »
One of my favorite sneaky decisions in golf course design is when a bunker is used to create visual confusion. I'm thinking specifically of bunkers that look like they are fronting or adjacent to the green, but then when you get down there you realize the bunker was 30-40 yards short of the green. At Wachusett CC, for example, Donald Ross made great use of this on the 9th, a 175-yard par 3 with a bunker left of the green that looks for all the world like it's just off the putting surface. You know going right is a disaster, so you think to yourself "I'm just going to drop something over the bunker and it should work its way down to the right."  And then on your walk to the green you discover that there was a whole lot of room between bunker and front edge. Obviously, this is most effective (and deceptive) on first play. But when it's really done well, it has a way of throwing you off just a bit every time.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2021, 09:35:08 AM »
Another good example of bunker placement is the 18th at Royal Lytham. The two lines of diagonal bunkers force you think about your options from the tee:
- play more to the right, but you have a longer distance to carry the first row of diagonal bunkers, but if you do carry them, you're safe
- play more to the left and have the shortest carry, but then you increase the chances your ball will run into the second row of diagonal bunkers on the left, so maybe a driver isn't the best option. But if you take a fairway wood, then carrying the first row of diagonal bunkers becomes more risky

I really like the staggered bunker placement, with one on each side of the fairway (but they should jut out a bit into the fairway) and probably be about 50-75 yards apart.


There should be situations where the best position to approach a green from, is from just next to or short of a bunker. You should be tempted to play with fire and risk getting singed.

Placing bunkers 50 yards short of a green shouldn't be seen as just punishing the weaker golfer. The good player might miss the fairway and play his/her next from the rough. In this situation, the bunkers are now in play and need to be considered.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2021, 10:07:03 AM »
Ally,


Love the topic, and think we should focus on just fw bunkering in this thread, saving greenside bunkering for a separate thread.  Yes, I know they are often related, but separate enough to discuss as a topic on it's own, IMHO.  I will dig up some of my past writings on fw bunkering and contribute those when I have the chance.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Felton

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2021, 10:11:44 AM »
A few thoughts.


One hole that popped into my head reading Donal's comments about bunkers 50 yards from the green affecting good players too. The 14th at Royal St Georges. Not a bunker, but the stream that runs across the fairway really shouldn't affect good players IF they're in the fairway.  Everything about that hole just works well together though. There is a reasonably wide fairway there, but the OB right pushes you left and if you tug it into the left rough, then clearing the burn becomes a much more challenging shot. That left rough catches a lot of business I suspect.


But back to the topic at hand. If you do hit it in the fairway and if the wind is into and from the left (as it often seemingly is) then you have to put your second shot into a spot from whence you can hit the green. OB persists down the right all the way down the hole. Then greenside there are two bunkers left of the green. The green slopes down away from those bunkers, so the approach from the left is extremely challenging. That makes you want to push it down the right, nearer the OB, but there are then two fairway bunkers about 80-100 yards from the green that are always right where I want to be hitting my second shot to. So you have a choice. Lay up to them and leave yourself a longer shot into a small green that's aggressively protected by OB and difficult bunkers. Play to the right and bring the OB into play with your second shot - great if you pull it off, but the penalty for a miss here is severe (namely you get to try again, but for two more). Or play to the left and have the tough approach from downwind and with the green sloping away and no way to run it in there. If you're long enough you can also try to carry those bunkers, but if you miss it at all, it's going in them and then you'll struggle to make the green. Both of them are small, but they're just so perfectly positioned as to make the second shot really hard.


Then Bethpage Black has some of the largest scale bunkers I've ever seen. So many of them where you can't really see out of them once you're in there. A lot of bunkers are just large patches of sand. BPB's bunkers are not like that. Some of them I think bring out some great strategic options (I know a lot of people think the fairways are too narrow for that, but I don't). 4, 5, 6 and 7 are great examples of strategic bunkers. 4, 5 and 7 all offer options of trying to carry the longer parts of the bunker to leave better angles for your second shot. 4 Does it twice.


But 6 is my favorite of the lot. If the wind isn't hurting, then I can carry the left bunker, but I have to hit it solid and I have to get the line exactly right. If I miss right then the right hand bunker is lurking waiting for me. If you play something safer to the right that can't reach the right bunker, then you're leaving yourself with a substantially longer second shot. I think it's a great heroic shot and it always entices me to go for it, even when I don't think it's the optimal choice.


I think BPB's bunkering offers visual intimidation, strategic options and opportunities for heroic carries. What's not to love?


One other kind of bunker that you see from time to time is one that's there to help the player. Where the bunker saves the ball from a worse fate. My bunker play is not particularly good - I don't trust myself over my low point and catch it clean sometimes, then overcorrect and take too much sand. Not a great combination, especially next time you're in one. Choices of leave it in the sand or blade it over the green. Not an easy choice. In any case, there are not many times where I'd say "get in the bunker", but occasionally the bunker is the lesser of two evils. 

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2021, 10:24:09 AM »
My general preference is to bunker one side of the fairway and let you bail out to the other, away from the optimum line. 


I had a diagram of the 12th hole at North Berwick in my first book:  a single pot on the inside left of the dogleg and another on the right flank of the green, which slopes away from there.  I played it last night, and there are now 4 pots inside left, one outside right of the fairway for no reason at all, and two more short left of the green for good measure.


Presumably all of those were added to stop longer hitters, but they don’t really do that.


Meanwhile, I’m in town to try to stop the pros at the Scottish Open from just letting driver rip up the safe side of the fairway at The Renaissance Club.  I was always taught not to take driver out of their hands, but that seems to be exactly what everyone wants me to do here.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2021, 10:43:23 AM »
My general preference is to bunker one side of the fairway and let you bail out to the other, away from the optimum line. 


I had a diagram of the 12th hole at North Berwick in my first book:  a single pot on the inside left of the dogleg and another on the right flank of the green, which slopes away from there.  I played it last night, and there are now 4 pots inside left, one outside right of the fairway for no reason at all, and two more short left of the green for good measure.


Presumably all of those were added to stop longer hitters, but they don’t really do that.


Meanwhile, I’m in town to try to stop the pros at the Scottish Open from just letting driver rip up the safe side of the fairway at The Renaissance Club.  I was always taught not to take driver out of their hands, but that seems to be exactly what everyone wants me to do here.


That's exactly my experience when I've returned to links courses in the UK.
My apologies for not citing specific examples, as it's just so prevalant.


As Tom says, it's mainly to stop the legion of long hitters now, but instead it just makes it less fun for the shorter hitters and the rest, but then the shorter hitters are the best ally of the equipment makers ;) [size=78%].[/size]



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2021, 10:52:38 AM »
Ally,


I will agree with you that every bunker should serve a purpose, given their cost to build and maintain, and probably those that survive long term will serve at least two purposes.  One, it must be a hazard, and the second function can be aesthetic, aesthetic from the clubhouse or some distant scenery on a hole, directional, divider, definition, safety, save bunker to keep golfers from going into even worse areas, occasionally drainage, etc.


Someone mentioned visual deception, and that is valuable.  On any budget driven project, and maybe a few that aren't, It's a good idea, but the question is, just how good an idea is it?  Because it usually involves being some distance from the green or fw landing zone (i.e., somewhere between the golfer and target) it will tend NOT to be a conventional hazard.  I can see it being used once or once per nine, maybe once on a tee shot and once on an approach.  I recently mentioned Faz had done a great job at Shadow Creek, using a large fronting bunker and oversized green to make a short approach look even shorter, only by increasing bunker size and green size 10-15%, which is cost efficient.  On his hole where he scattered ever smaller bunkers to make the green look further away, it resulted in 3-4 visual only bunkers, which also aren't really in play, which is not as cost efficient.


Even not considering cost, if I use visual deception more than a few times, is it a neat feature that provides challenge, and/or at what point is it just as repetitive as "bunker left, bunker right?"


Short version, probably anything is worthwhile once per course, but in the name of variety of challenge and look, and with so many conceptual choices out there, is there any particular bunker scheme/concept that should be the "standard" design option?


For instance, off the tee, as a generalized challenge (with many detail options) basically we place a fw bunker that asks the golfer to [size=78%]([/size]optionally) carry it (generally short of the landing zone), skirt it (at the landing zone), or stay short of it (just past the landing zone).  We can ask them to:


Avoid the center of the fw with a center bunker, if enough fw exists on either side
Create a split fw that offers the heroic carry of a fw bunker as one option
Create a split fw where the pin position dictates one side is a better approach angle
Create more subtle sub favored landing zones within a bigger one, i.e., a flat area within a larger rolling fw, using contours.
Create more subtle sub landing zones to avoid that aren't hazards, i.e., slopes that carry tee shots off the fw to rough.
Protect a small zone that enhances roll, i.e., create and defend the "turbo boost" of extra roll.


Play a fade or draw around a tree
Create a situation with ground hazards where the angle, width, and wind of the target zone suggest a draw or fade.
Play to a narrow target requiring control
Bite off what you can chew
The gradual narrowing of target zone by hazards, decreasing the margin for error the longer the tee shot gets
Play to a wide open target (hey, nothing wrong with an easy tee shot every once in a while)
Negotiate a cross slope (overall or in some portion of the target zone as per above)
Forced Carry (optional carries are always superior for average players)
Forced Layup, similar to the pinch bunkers that ask you to stay short, but crossing nearly all the fairway)


Of course, we can:


- Stagger bunkers in any number of patterns to create slightly different options for shorter/longer, draw/fade type players.
- Make the hazards large, which tend to intimidate and act as stop signs
- Make the hazards small, which tend to make golfers figure their chances of missing those are much better.
- Force perspective up or down
- Hide some ground, which creates visual deception


Of course, we can combine a few of these elements where the land allows.


There are more, I think, and I did elaborate further in one of Paul Daley's earlier books.  The list above provides over the 14 ideas necessary for one of each tee shot on a typical regulation course, and at least half of them could bear to be created twice - once left and once right, for instance.  So the question is, why do so many courses repeat bunker left, bunker right on tee shots, or perhaps overly rely on lateral target zone bunkers when they could have almost infinite variety?


I recall a similar discussion here years ago.  I presented my basic set of possible scenarios, also concluding that I leave it to the golfer to come up with all the mental gymnastics of how those bunkers affect them, probably overthinking it.  Tom Doak responded with a dissertation on placing just one bunker somewhere and then proceeded to elaborate on 11 possible ways the golfer could consider playing it.  Basically, the same thought presented differently.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:55:10 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 12:42:12 PM »
Ally,


Love the topic, and think we should focus on just fw bunkering in this thread, saving greenside bunkering for a separate thread.  Yes, I know they are often related, but separate enough to discuss as a topic on it's own, IMHO.  I will dig up some of my past writings on fw bunkering and contribute those when I have the chance.
Not just related but strongly inter-related, surely?


My favourite hole on my home course (The Northumberland GC) was the 12th.  A 400 yard par 4, this had 7 bunkers arranged around the green in a U shape.  The bunker at the bottom of the U was perhaps 20 yards short of the green, whilst those on the two uprights of the U were pretty much greenside.  This mean that the easiest approach (allowing the ball to land short and run on, rather than flying all the way to the green) was over that bunker and, therefore, down the "axis" of the U.  That axis pointed pretty much straight at a large RHS fairway bunker at a driveable distance (protruding into the fairway, so you could play short or carry it and have a fairway lie).  For an "easy" second shot, therefore, you had to play short, just left of or try to carry the fairway bunker.  There was loads of room left of the bunker but the bail out drive left a much harder approach.  Difficult to consider the merits of these bunkers separately.


Some may notice my use above of the past tense.  Sadly a few (but sadly influential) members complained that if they hit a "good" drive, safely into the left side of the fairway, they were "punished" by having a harder second shot.  The greens committee bowed to that pressure and changed the greenside bunkering to make the approach from the left easier.  So now, you are rewarded for the safe tee shot.  The hole is far, far less interesting as a result.

In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 01:02:18 PM »
I like random bunkering where you play the course for the first time and wonder why a particular bunker is placed there. Then you play the course again and hit a poor tee shot and know why it is there. I like the cross bunkers like 17 at Baltusrol or seven at PV. The shape of the greens help determine bunker placement. Oval greens tend to mean bunker left and bunker right. I used to belong to a club that had those type of greens and bunkers. It was boring because every hole played similarly. Ameba type greens allow for more creative use of bunkering.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 01:19:07 PM »
I too prefer fairway bunkers on just one side of the hole as long as the greenside bunkering and surrounds design work in tandem. Indeed, sometimes you need no fairway bunker at all: …


One of the great strategic holes is the 10th at Portmarnock. It has an elevated, crowned green with fall-offs on all sides (think Dornoch). The hole dog-legs from left to right and the narrowish green runs down the axis of the left / outside of the fairway. The beauty here is that there is one cavernous pot front-right and then one short grass swale that eats in to the green and effectively narrows it further at middle-left. The green cannot be approached from the right but the tee shot is very much tempted that way through a significant line of charm straight at the green…. There was no fairway bunker until a couple of years ago when Martin Ebert added one on the left. This is fine because it holds the strategy, even if it is too tight to the best line - it should be 5 yards wider to the left.


If bunkering is on both sides of the hole, make sure it is staggered to provide better sides dependent on wind and green pin positions. Do not always stagger at exactly +30 yards on the right-handed draw side. I have seen that mindless, repetitive bunkering added to our classic courses just a little bit much lately.


Also, what’s this 260-300 yard consistent bunkering on links courses, again not taking in to account hugely varying conditions for all levels of golfers? There was a lot to be said for living with a course for a few years and then bunkering where there are most divots.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 01:21:20 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2021, 01:46:02 PM »
Bunkers? My first thought is can another feature be used which essentially serves the same purpose. The vast majority of courses are over bunkered and under shaped. I guess we have arrived at the point where archies are afraid to get in the face of golfers with anything but sand, water or rough.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2021, 01:57:27 PM »
You’re on the wrong thread, Sean.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2021, 02:02:59 PM »
You’re on the wrong thread, Sean.

Maybe, but every bunker can be justified and that is why we end up with places being applauded for having over 100 bunkers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2021, 02:13:41 PM »
Tom D wrote:
'I was always taught not to take driver out of their hands'.
Do certain teachings simply become obsolete?
This one seems to come from a time when they still taught Latin in high-school, and when golf pros were praised for -- and defined by -- their ability to work the golf ball both ways, and their willingness to do so based on the architecture and conditions.
With technology and data and distance and every long driving top tour player in the world now hitting their 'stock fade' off the tee every single time, has the notion of 'proper fairway bunker positioning' become moot?
Are the seemingly 'random' pot bunkers of the old links the best approach of all?



Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2021, 02:54:18 PM »
Once upon a time a combination of both the positional and visual aspects of bunkering were a pretty key ingredient in design, strategy and playability, especially in matters like the cunning use of dead-ground, depth perception, visual camouflage etc etc.
Hope I’m not on the wrong thread (!) but an inter-related aspect at least to me is the extent the effectiveness of fairway bunkering has been diminished with the advent of the range-finders and various GPS gadgets that so many players now carry?
Fortunately things like wind strength and direction, firmness of ground etc still allow an element of experience and skilful judgement to have influence but not to the extent of past eras.
And with the desire for manicured conditioning and modern maintenance practices the use of bunkers as positional hazards to be avoided has surely largely gone.
So why have them at all?
Ok they look nice in photos and likely help sell rounds of golf but, except on sand based courses, are they worth having any more? Humps and hollows of various heights and with various length grasses on them are easier and less costly to construct and maintain and are these days likely more of a strategic hazard than a raked sand garden?
Apologies if this isn’t the right thread but to me an essential part of discussing bunker positioning is whether they are needed at all.
Atb



JMEvensky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2021, 03:10:38 PM »

Tom D wrote:
'I was always taught not to take driver out of their hands'.
Do certain teachings simply become obsolete?
This one seems to come from a time when they still taught Latin in high-school, and when golf pros were praised for -- and defined by -- their ability to work the golf ball both ways, and their willingness to do so based on the architecture and conditions.
With technology and data and distance and every long driving top tour player in the world now hitting their 'stock fade' off the tee every single time, has the notion of 'proper fairway bunker positioning' become moot?
Are the seemingly 'random' pot bunkers of the old links the best approach of all?





Driver is still the hardest club in the bag to hit. I think the risk/reward proposition of hitting driver is what's now out of whack. I just don't know if bunkers help or hurt bringing back the risk/reward balance.


I'd guess the biggest problem with random pot bunkers is that they overly punish those who least need punishing--bad players.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2021, 03:44:18 PM »
But is it, JM, in any meaningful sense, still the hardest club to hit? I mean: yes, I suppose especially given the distance the ball flies using it, it's harder to stay on line and 'hit a target' with a driver than with an 8 iron. But what if that 'target' is some 45 yards wide and 45 yards 'long' (ie you don't have to worry much about distance control), and you can access it always with the same stock fade off a 460 cc and forgiving head 'adjusted' so as to foster that very fade and prevent a draw?

All that said, though, yours is the good question: do bunkers help rebalance the risk-reward equation, and if so how.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2021, 04:02:59 PM »
Sean, Thomas,


By my analysis, every GCA thread eventually devolves in to one of four discussions:


1. Look at how many great and/or unusual courses I’ve seen.
2. Everything was better 100 years ago
3. Oh doesn’t that / those / they look pretty
4. Do we really need so many bunkers?


I’m looking at discussing bunker placements that make a difference to how a hole is played; a real difference. And are there any trends and consistencies in these holes and courses in what they do Vs Joe Bloggs bunker design next door.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 04:12:31 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

JMEvensky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2021, 04:11:40 PM »
But is it, JM, in any meaningful sense, still the hardest club to hit? I mean: yes, I suppose especially given the distance the ball flies using it, it's harder to stay on line and 'hit a target' with a driver than with an 8 iron. But what if that 'target' is some 45 yards wide and 45 yards 'long' (ie you don't have to worry much about distance control), and you can access it always with the same stock fade off a 460 cc and forgiving head 'adjusted' so as to foster that very fade and prevent a draw?

All that said, though, yours is the good question: do bunkers help rebalance the risk-reward equation, and if so how.


Your last question is one that has interested me for a while. The only bunkers which affect good players are very deep (assuming they're being raked) while any sand tends to put fear in bad players. So why design/build/maintain a feature which, IMO, skews so heavily toward the better player? They aren't the ones who need help.



Joel_Stewart

  • Total Karma: -9
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2021, 04:13:49 PM »
  I was always taught not to take driver out of their hands, but that seems to be exactly what everyone wants me to do here.


Who taught you that and why?


I played Pasatiempo yesterday and had forgot how many bunkers the course had. I find it hard to believe all of those are Mackenzie.