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Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2021, 04:16:05 PM »
The three courses that I think use bunkers best for strategic purposes:


Woking. It is not just Number 4. There are not a lot of bunkers but almost all of them have a purpose in affecting play. The bunker mid green at 3 for example combines with the curvature of the fairway to present conundrums on the tee and for the second shot. On the back in particular the green side bunkers set up wonderful hole location options.


Mid Pines. Bunkers just at the right place on the inside corners on a number of holes. Number 12 being a great example. The green side bunkers reinforce that many of the greens sit at an awkward angle to the fairway. The bunker at 4 makes it a scary short par 4.


Brora. Once again, not a lot of bunkers, but they seem to be right where you do not want them to be and somehow every shot left in a green side one felt short sided.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2021, 04:16:14 PM »
You can never under estimate the amount of eye candy us bunker sluts desire on the golf course.

P.S.  Are there any lists where the top 25 aren't chock full of courses with oodles of bunkers or sandy areas like TOC and CPC?

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2021, 04:34:19 PM »
Among modern courses, Streamsong Red has very strong bunkering except for the Par 3s. Lots of centerline or semi-centerline bunkers. In addition, it uses bunkers to create a tucked position for several greens or to reinforce that greens are tucked away from the direct line of play.


But maybe the best use of bunkers on the property is Number 4 on Blue. Intimidating visually but actually plenty of room to avoid them. Unfortunately, I did not.


Ira

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2021, 04:40:07 PM »
Mark P, Not just related but strongly inter-related, surely?


Well, yes and no.  I may be wrong, but from your post and example, you may be overly clinging to the "challenge the bunker to get an open roll up to the green" school of design.


As we have seen, shot pattern, blocking out one side, and curving the ball back to the target is probably what to design for today for players good enough to really think about strategy, or at least to expect its rewards.  Creating the most possible width for the shot to land safely is the mantra now, and yes, that still means playing to the extreme edge of a fw, but there are many ways the second shot can present a better challenge than an open front green (which to be fair, you aren't probably disputing.)


For example, Pete Dye took to guarding the inside corner of the dogleg and the inside corner of the green on long par 4 holes, to make them play a smidge longer if you played safe, and largely discounted any angle improvement.


It's not that I have never put holes in other conditions, but for my money, the carry a fw bunker to get an open front to the green works best on fairly consistently downwind holes where the tailing wind 1) makes it more tempting to carry the angled bunker, and 2) on the approach, reduces spin on the approach shot to where having a little room to run the shot out may really be necessary.


And, in a strong and reasonably consistent cross wind situation, I tend to bunker the downwind side twice to accommodate the DECADE shot golfers want to play (and I did this decades before DECADE!) BTW, as Mac said, bunkers aren't really to punish, they are to encourage the golfer to hit various shots.


So, inside fw bunker and outside greenside bunker isn't the only way to go.  Once you set up a tee shot, you might have any number of approach shot concepts.


To those who mention taking the driver out of the hands of better players, I ask why?  They want to hit drivers as much as anyone else, so why make golf less fun for them?  I once wrote it seems like an analogy to tax the wealthy to minimize the differences between classes. I guess I want to allow the better players to reap success from their talent.


After thinking about it more, I still think the best way to create that temptation and risk/reward in the time of DECADE golf is to create playing corridors just under the maximum width recommended by Fawcette.  What's a few yards of width to the confident and less disciplined player?  He recommends 68 yards or just over 200 feet wide.  Maybe make the tree to tree corridor from 60-65 yards wide, or about 90-95% (with some variation on each hole as the land dictates)  It forces them to aim outside the actual play corridor to attain it.  As it happens, a 3 row sprinkler system adequately covers just about 200 feet of width.


I can see perhaps narrower if the landing zone has an upslope facing the fade (or draw on alternate holes) to stop it sooner, and perhaps a bit more if it rolls out against them.  Or, put one subtle gathering slope in there that runs the ball off the fw that they might not notice, so they have to hit the controlled cut a specific distance rather than bang away.


BTW, the Broadie stats and others do show a dip in approach shot accuracy from the rough.  Just as we are surprised that Rahm's approach shots averaged just 31 feet from the hole (and he was the winner!) I think we would be surprised at how much different the rough makes.  He says that for pros, an extra 20 yards is worth 0.75 strokes per round, or 3 over 4 rounds, enough to make a difference.  He also measured strokes lost per degree of angle off center, and it came out to 0.75 strokes per degree of miss, i.e., 4 degrees off line (about the pro average) costs the same 3 strokes per round. 


For tour pros, at a 140 yard approach shot, the number of strokes to hole out is 2.91 from the fw, 3.15 from the rough, and 3.22 from a fw sand bunker.  Yes, fw sand bunkers are less of a nuisance than they used to be, but they aren't obsolete.  Wherever they become more penal, pros will probably just consider them like the tree line or native areas and calculate that into their 68 yard window.


As always, just my random thoughts on an interesting subject.




Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2021, 04:44:24 PM »
Does anyone agree that the most influential bunkers often do not reveal themselves on 1st, 2nd or 3rd play? It’s the subtleties and little areas of grey rather than the ones that scream in your face….


We all judge courses way too quickly. None of us play enough rounds on enough courses to really understand many more than a handful of them… so how can we possibly rate them?

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2021, 04:58:07 PM »
Does anyone agree that the most influential bunkers often do not reveal themselves on 1st, 2nd or 3rd play? It’s the subtleties and little areas of grey rather than the ones that scream in your face….


We all judge courses way too quickly. None of us play enough rounds on enough courses to really understand many more than a handful of them… so how can we possibly rate them?


Ally,


This the fifth topic to which Gca threads devolve :-).


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2021, 05:06:10 PM »
Does anyone agree that the most influential bunkers often do not reveal themselves on 1st, 2nd or 3rd play? It’s the subtleties and little areas of grey rather than the ones that scream in your face….

We all judge courses way too quickly. None of us play enough rounds on enough courses to really understand many more than a handful of them… so how can we possibly rate them?
Ally,
This the fifth topic to which Gca threads devolve :-).
Ira
And in turn all 5 topics resolve themselves/funnel into the single ONE topic, the answer to every question/topic under the gca sun: The Old Course at St Andrews!
Maybe we could just skip the intermediate steps and just discuss "bunker positioning" at The Old Course! :) 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:07:59 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2021, 05:13:45 PM »
Does anyone agree that the most influential bunkers often do not reveal themselves on 1st, 2nd or 3rd play? It’s the subtleties and little areas of grey rather than the ones that scream in your face….


We all judge courses way too quickly. None of us play enough rounds on enough courses to really understand many more than a handful of them… so how can we possibly rate them?


As in you tend to "see" the blind bunkers at TOC after a few plays?  Or as in, you start to realize that the target is narrower than you thought, bunker harder to get out of, or easier to get into (i.e., a gathering slope takes you there from a certain area of the fw?)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2021, 05:14:36 PM »
Touché Ira.


Let me strike that last question from the record your honour; and get back to the point at hand… of which an important part is that good bunkering doesn’t necessarily shout out at you. And certainly can’t be decided by looking at google earth and thinking an aerial looks cool.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2021, 05:28:00 PM »
Ally,


At least you tried to get us to speak/write more philosphically.  But, it's a tough nut to crack.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2021, 05:45:34 PM »
Good topic.  Someone should write a book about this stuff  :D   Murifield in Scotland is often talked about as one fo the best bunkered courses in the world.  It has close to 130+ bunkers if I recall correctly.  Are they all necessary?  Why are they where they are?  Oakmont is up there in a similar discussion.  We could discuss all this for hours on end. 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2021, 06:00:29 PM »
Does anyone agree that the most influential bunkers often do not reveal themselves on 1st, 2nd or 3rd play? It’s the subtleties and little areas of grey rather than the ones that scream in your face….


We all judge courses way too quickly. None of us play enough rounds on enough courses to really understand many more than a handful of them… so how can we possibly rate them?


As in you tend to "see" the blind bunkers at TOC after a few plays?  Or as in, you start to realize that the target is narrower than you thought, bunker harder to get out of, or easier to get into (i.e., a gathering slope takes you there from a certain area of the fw?)


It’s an endless topic Jeff but it is your latter point in brackets more so than your former point. I always return to links courses but they really do exaggerate the smallest of angles due to firmness and wind conditions. Tiny rolls in the ground can accentuate the difficulty to come in from certain angles and help Greenside bunkers play a bigger part, in turn meaning the position of fairway hazards take on even more importance.


I’ve seen brilliant hazards at 320 yards and also at 200 yards, sometimes on the same hole. The wind and ground can have such an effect.


I’ve seen a fly-by-night architect remove a bunker at 330 yards that was perfectly positioned and replace it with one at 270 that doesn’t do the job half as well. You cannot build links bunkers from numbers. You have to live the land to know where they work best. You are far better to place them in to natural features anyway but I really do shake my head when I see links courses with bunker schemes designed straight off a topo.




Maybe I should just buy new irons or clean my grooves?

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2021, 07:19:57 PM »
Touché Ira.


Let me strike that last question from the record your honour; and get back to the point at hand… of which an important part is that good bunkering doesn’t necessarily shout out at you. And certainly can’t be decided by looking at google earth and thinking an aerial looks cool.


Lol. And agree re shouting out at you. It is one of the reasons I wrote about Woking and Brora (even though I played them only once). Nothing flashy in the least; just great placement. Having said that, flash can have its role so long as the placement also is on point. Someone mentioned Pasatiempo--all of the Par 3s have flashy bunkering, but most serve a strategic purpose 


Ira

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2021, 07:27:36 PM »
Ira,
Regarding Pasatiempo; I have played the course many times and I really enjoy it (though some of the greens are really severe).  However, if you don’t like lots of bunkers (love to hear what Sean would think if he played it), you will say they are way overdone.  It is not a course where less is more  ;D

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2021, 08:01:11 PM »
Ira,
Regarding Pasatiempo; I have played the course many times and I really enjoy it (though some of the greens are really severe).  However, if you don’t like lots of bunkers (love to hear what Sean would think if he played it), you will say they are way overdone.  It is not a course where less is more  ;D


Mark,


That is exactly the point I made. They are overdone, but sometimes overdone works. Not generally my preference but I am a big tent guy.


Ira

Jon Sweet

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2021, 10:22:22 PM »
If I could figure out pic posting I would but… there are two bunkers on the course I caddie at that are ball magnets. They occur in both par 5s. On the 10th and 16th. The 10th positioned about 115 to the front, roughly 25 yards long give or take, you have about 25 yards of fairway left of it but ideally you need to carry it to get up on the flat. The cover number is always plus 10 but you wouldn’t believe the amount of balls I see in there. You are not dead in there but for your average player you aren’t making 5. Mins you, this is a benign horseshoe shaped 5. Maybe even sub 500 yards. Rarely see 3, often see 6 or 7.
Lastly 16, a dogleg left 5 down the hill and right back up it. There is a fairway bunker roughly 60 yards off the front of the green bordering the fairway but mostly in the rough. Put it in that bunker and you’re dead. The top of it looks like an easy cover, but if it shoots 200 you might as well have it shoot 240. Funny thing is, best angle into that green is in the rough short of that bunker. Amazes me no matter how many times I tell people you’ve got 190 to the front of that bunker they hit enough to get in it. 6 or 7 immediately. Bunker I’d say is roughly 25 to 30 yards long.
This course was done by a first time amateur designer. Odd the placement of those two and wonder if he had any idea how much they’d fool with your eye or just got lucky.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2021, 04:01:03 AM »
To be fair to Sean, talking about “less is more” does have its place on this thread because it can directly relate to well thought-out schemes.


One kind of bunker I like is the horizontal carry-bunker that still has room to go round. What I mean by that is an in your face bunker that appears like an old style penal cross-bunker with the best line straight over it but one where you could choose to go elsewhere. (Note I am not talking about a nest on the inside of a dogleg that only the huge hitters can carry). 9 at Riviera comes to mind. There’s a good one on the left half of 10 at St Patricks. I put something like this in at the 12th at Strandhill. They are a bit of fun and most golfers interact with them regardless of ability.


Back to total numbers: Most of the “championship” links courses have large numbers of bunkers for two quite obvious reasons:


1. Because they are on flattish ground and other features are fewer and further between.
2. Their modus operandi is to be “tough” and to challenge the best.


Although in that search for toughness, some basic strategy is being removed. If I return to Portmarnock for a second (which I’ve already stated is one of the most strategic courses I know), it had - up until a few years ago - only one (or no) side of the fairway bunkered on 13 of the 15 longer hole tee shots. On almost all of these holes, the bunkering was directly tied to green angles…. Just recently, the 2nd side of the fairway has had a bunker added on the 4th, 6th, 9th and 16th. I can fully understand why this has been done - it will tighten the line for the best players who need accuracy tested first and foremost - but all it does for the rest of us is make us play for the middle regardless…. Even on flatter, tournament links courses, use of different stagger distances, diagonals and other tools can really add to the enjoyment by asking golfers to plot their way round, but to do it with width. One does tend to need a few more bunkers on aggregate to achieve this though.


Mark mentions Muirfield - why do you think Muirfield is “better bunkered” than say, Troon?


Donal mentions Lytham - why do you think that you have to plot your way round Lytham more than say, Carnoustie?

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2021, 04:07:00 AM »
Points above taken Ally and I’m sure if you’d asked the same question say 20-25 yrs ago I’d have phrased my response differently but current circumstances …… nah, let’s not go there.
Here’s a type for discussion - safety bunkers. I’ll use the ‘S’ word in relation to bunkers in two ways, there may be more, one to hold balls back from going somewhere like over a cliff edge where folks might be inclined to venture but really shouldn’t and two, be a nasty looking feature in the players eye so they aim well away from it and are thus hopefully less likely to hit towards a house or garden etc etc. I image the latter could also be termed a ‘protecting’ bunker.
More thoughts likely to arise later.
Atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2021, 04:22:28 AM »
Yes, “safety” bunkers are definitely part of design and are used primarily in the two ways you outlined.


I do feel though that they are a necessary evil: They have a different driver (safety or saving) than the purity of just making the best hole. So obviously it is better if your safety bunker also serves a higher, strategic purpose as well.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2021, 04:39:31 AM »
More of a dirty word than “safety” bunkers are “target” or “framing” bunkers:


We all know the old adage (see Tom Simpson) that bunkers become lighthouses for good players to judge their shots but they do play a few roles that are worthy:


Target bunker example: I was only going to put in one fairway bunker on Kilmore 8 at Carne but I needed golfers to understand where the fairway narrowed at a blind spot so by putting a second diagonal bunker in place and by working with the mowing lines, I made it clear that you have to head to the right. Without that, the hole could be incredibly frustrating. Comes down to pro’s outweighing con’s.


Framing bunkers: With the best will in the world, I don’t think any architect could put their hand on their heart and state that the “aesthetics” and scale of the hole have not played a big part in some of their bunker placements. Bunkers can play a big part in giving a sense of width (scale) and beauty to the way holes sit in the landscape. It happens.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2021, 11:37:45 AM »
Fairway bunkers are hopelessly overrated here.  Perry Maxwell did just fine while hardly building any of them.  It seems the only point of them now is to make long hitters back off, but since a bunker 150 yards from the green is scant trouble for them, it’s much ado about nothing.


Half the guests I’ve brought to Crystal Downs have thought there should be a fairway bunker for the second shot on 16, even though any visible bunker would render the hole a 4-shotter for anyone who got near it.  And there’s a reason we don’t build 4-shot holes.  They just can’t stand the idea that the most important thing on a long hole might be just to make forward progress. 

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2021, 12:41:35 PM »
Tom,


I agree that you do not need many fairway bunkers and some of my favorite holes have none. However, a well placed centerline bunker or one that provides risk to get the best angle to the green adds real value. I believe you have built some yourself.


Ira




Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2021, 01:34:31 PM »

One kind of bunker I like is the horizontal carry-bunker that still has room to go round. What I mean by that is an in your face bunker that appears like an old style penal cross-bunker with the best line straight over it but one where you could choose to go elsewhere.



Ally,


Although I have done a few cross bunker types, I still prefer 30-45 deg angle carry bunkers that extend along the line of play somewhat.  If at 90 deg, there is only one prescribed carry distance from each tee, but that tee is probably laid in there to represent and challenge players with a range of 20-40 yards from shortest to longest.


As to your earlier comments about not really needing fw bunkering, I still have a copy of the 1965 Golf Digest article by HH Wind, where he said that in reality, a single greenside bunker is all that is needed to set up a strategy, and that would be true minimalism.   As discussed on other threads, perhaps the contouring of the green would be what really sets up the strategy.


Regarding bunkering only one side of the fw, one of my first thoughts was that on the typical high play, high cart usage course (that I have typically designed, or at least hoping for high play for the sake of my owner.....) bunkering only the side of the fw AWAY from the cart path is often a - or even the primary - consideration to avoid blocking cart traffic and creating difficult to maintain funnel areas with their compaction, turf loss, etc.


And, as to your comments about bunkers always being around 260, I agree. Both TD and I have mentioned here that it can be too suggestive to lay holes out with centerlines with standard dogleg points of 266/283/300 yards (800, 850, and 900 feet).  But, they are necessary for marking out construction consistently.  One way to combat this problem (to the degree it exists) is to favor so called random bunkering, which may mean just not being troubled if a natural knoll perfect for bunker construction appears at some distance other than the "prescribed" one.  As mentioned, any particular tee will be played by golfers with up to 40 yards distance differences, so building a bunker at, say, 248 when the dogleg point is 266 shouldn't be a problem, as it will affect many golfers somehow, and possibly differently that other golfers on the same tee on some hole somewhere else.


I also add a bit of noodling to the distance fw bunkers are placed from the tee by using (the horror!) a spreadsheet to estimate any tee shot distance expectations by factoring in elevation differences, wind, if typical and strong enough in the area) and even uphill and downhill slopes in the landing zone to estimate quick stops or long rolls.  The basic goal is to avoid "wasting" fw bunkers in places where they have little chance of coming into play.



« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 01:40:40 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2021, 01:59:02 PM »
Lastly, as a long time advocate for "proportional tee spacing", i.e., locating tees at 90-80-70 and 60% of hole distance, based on proportional tee shot distance,  rather than a straight tee split of about 25-35 yards, I have begun to consider how that affects fw bunker placement. 


While the 35 yard split system theoretically gets all golfers on all tees to the same general landing zone, including hazards proportional spacing spreads out the landing zones.  Short holes don't see much difference, but on a 470 yard hole, with tees at about 423, 381, 342, and 282 yards, the 295 tee shot from the back tees leaves a 175 yard approach, while the typical 145 tee shot from 282 leaves the LZ only 140 yards from the green (and 330 yards from the back tee).


In short, the LZ for shorter players can come out longer from the tee than for back tee players.  So, the question becomes, especially for a guy not prone to designing for Tour pros that will never show up, "Where do I put the fw bunkers?"  Sometimes, lateral or pinch bunkers for the back tee become carry bunkers from the front tee, and vice versa.  When (if?) I figure out those questions, I will let you know, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Bunker positioning
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2021, 03:57:08 AM »
Here's a tidbit from a piece written by Harry Colt that appears in Horace Hutchinson's 1906 book 'Golf greens and Green-keeping'.
atb