Princes Golf Club

[Sam Krume]

playing Princes this Saturday after a good few years away. Can anyone tell me about the renovations on the course and how they are playing , especially the Himalayas 9.

[Sam Krume]

Obviously Princes highly thought of on here then!!!!

[Greg Gilson]

Sam, I have been there twice the past couple of years but never played Himalayas I am afraid. Princes is good but not great. Obviously, the #3 seed in that neighborhood.

[Adam Lawrence]

I was there a couple of times while Gary Johnston was doing the re bunkering work on Shore and Dunes, so again can't offer feedback on Himalayays. I agree with Greg that it's a clear no. 3 in the area but RSG is England's greatest course and RCP is not far short, so that's no insult. There was, a few years ago, some discussion that the owners might be interested in putting back the pre-war 18, but that hasn't materialised and frankly I don't know how practical it would be. Shore and Dunes are very strong. The new Lodge is excellent.

[Mark Chaplin]

Played the Himalayas for the first time in probably 20years in the summer as part of a 54 hole match over Deal, Sandwich and Princes. The Himalayas is a little like the Jubilee course at Rye, you think you are missing out when you stand on the first tee and realise you've played a very good loop when you stand on the final green.

[Bill_McBride]

Played the Himalayas for the first time in probably 20years in the summer as part of a 54 hole match over Deal, Sandwich and Princes. The Himalayas is a little like the Junilee course at Rye, you think you are missing out when you stand on the first tee and realise you've played a very good loop when you stand on the final green.

In my one round at Princes we didn't play the Himalayas nine, but I would love to have had a chance to play the par 5 over the big dune where Gene Sarazen won the 1932 Open Championship by getting home in two when no one else dared that risky shot.   From what our host told me, I'm not sure the hole still exists in the current layout. 

[Sean_A]

playing Princes this Saturday after a good few years away. Can anyone tell me about the renovations on the course and how they are playing , especially the Himalayas 9.

Ask Doc Hiseman...I think one of the associates of the company he works for oversaw the work.  I haven't seen the new Hima, but I think the bunker work for Dunes & Shores is very good.  For mine, Princes is top 50 GB&I...I have a lot of time for the course not least because of a sensible pricing structure.  They do fine winter deals...Weekend - Fri to Sat (1 Night Lodge Accommodation, 2 Rounds of Golf, A la Carte Breakfast, 2 Course Dinner)£125pp



Ciao

[Ben Lovett]

I will add that it should be in good condition as they have a good young greenkeeper, as do the two other course next door who all seem to be pushing each over to new heights.
The new bunker work really difines the holes on a relatively flat site

[Sam Krume]

Looking forward to seeing all the finished work. I think the Hima's has had the most work. Will be interested to see what they have done with the 6th. I believe it's been pushed towards the sea so plays as double deg leg par5, we shall see.

[BCrosby]

Princes was widely thought to be one of the best courses in the world on the eve of WWII. That course is still in the ground somewhere underneath the new courses. I am not giving up hope that they will retrieve it someday.


Bob

[Niall C]

Bob


Was the issue at Princes not that they were losing ground to the sea ? Or am I getting it mixed up with Rye ?


Niall

[BCrosby]

Niall -


The old Princes was, as I recall, used as a bombing range by the RAF during WWII. If it had beach erosion problems I am unaware of them.


Bob

[Niall C]

Bob


You are undoubtedly correct. I tend to get mixed up with the courses in the south, not having played them.


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Princes was widely thought to be one of the best courses in the world on the eve of WWII. That course is still in the ground somewhere underneath the new courses. I am not giving up hope that they will retrieve it someday.

I don't know this for certain Bob, but given it was a bombing range the landforms are probably rather different, don't you think? That's what I meant when I said I don't know how practical restoring the pre-war 18 would be. There was definitely interest in that a few years ago, but I haven't heard anything of late.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob


Was the issue at Princes not that they were losing ground to the sea ? Or am I getting it mixed up with Rye ?


Niall

Actually I think it was Royal Cinque Ports, which accounts for today's sea wall.  An Open, I think 1920, was cancelled due to flooding. 

[BCrosby]

Adam -


Certainly landforms were "re-arranged" by the RAF. But I would think that enough is known of the old championship course to recover something close to it. Dirt would have to be moved. Given given the potential upside to the course's standing, I would hope a restoration/rebuild might someday make sense.   


Princes was an extraordinary course by all accounts. More than 7000 yards playing to a par 70. On an apples to apples driving distance comparison, that's something like a 8000+ yard course for today's pros. The old course must have been something.


Bob 

[Mark Chaplin]

Deal lost a couple of Opens in the 30s and 40s to flooding and another to the war. The sea wall was build to stop the town flooding, nothing to do with erosion. Rye is getting more land not less, the Jubilee will eventually be 18 holes.

[Sam Krume]

I would love to see the course restored back to the original 18 hole layout. I believe it used all the land that the 3 nines now occupy. You can see the original routing hanging in a frame in the new(awful) clubhouse. If I recall I believe I read somewhere that Sarazen had said that it was the best course he had seen in England, not a bad considering what's next door but then again he did win an Open championship there....

[Sam Krume]

Sam, I have been there twice the past couple of years but never played Himalayas I am afraid. Princes is good but not great. Obviously, the #3 seed in that neighborhood.

Why not great? What makes it just goog?

[Sean_A]

Sam


In a word, given the current design the terrain isn't good enough to call Princes great.  There is no doubt in my mind that a great 18 hole course can be had on the property, but it would mean losing one of the 9s.  There aren't enough holes which across the dunes meaning there are too many holes which play in the low lying valleys of dunes.  Still, Princes is very good and worth while playing.  I give Princes and Deal 1* (a very good rating) and Sandwich a 2* (because it is more majestic and I reckon one of the few championship courses which properly tests the flat bellies and is enjoyable for the hackers).


See the Kent Kaleidoscope for what I think is the best three links concentration in GB&I.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981787.html#msg981787


Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sam you spotted the reason Sarazen loved Princes, a little like Gary Player and Trump with their "best in the world courses".

I strongly doubt Princes will ever restore the original 18, they are privately owned and spending a mint to go from 27 to 18 holes makes zero economic sense.

[Bill_McBride]

Sam


In a word, given the current design the terrain isn't good enough to call Princes great.  There is no doubt in my mind that a great 18 hole course can be had on the property, but it would mean losing one of the 9s.  There aren't enough holes which across the dunes meaning there are too many holes which play in the low lying valleys of dunes.  Still, Princes is very good and worth while playing.  I give Princes and Deal 1* (a very good rating) and Sandwich a 2* (because it is more majestic and I reckon one of the few championship courses which properly tests the flat bellies and is enjoyable for the hackers).


See the Kent Kaleidoscope for what I think is the best three links concentration in GB&I.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981787.html#msg981787


Ciao

Like Sean I would love to see more holes that play across the dunes.  As it is, almost all the holes play in those valleys he mentions and parallel to each other and the beach.   The prevailing wind seems to be a stiff cross wind, which made the tee shots particularly difficult.  In my brief experience you had to start tee balls out over the rough and hope they didn't reach the rough on the opposite side!   Lots of ball hawking which the Good Doctor deplored. 

[Sam Krume]

Bill/Sean,
I agree with you both whole hardheartedly, my favourite holes are the ones that utilise the ridges for their green sites, thinking #6shore #6dunes #5dunes. I also think the 3's at princes are a very good set as a whole. I remember playing#2 on dunes one day and it was a gap wedge then one week later it was a 5 iron.....

[Sam Krume]

After playing Princes yesterday(dunes & Himalayas) There is definitely a great golf course waiting to be plotted on that land, there is so much land there, more maybe than RSG. The new 6th on the Hima's is now a wonderful hole with two centre line bunkers that really fool you standing on the tee, well done for that. The lateral down the right is also a wonderful addition.

[Michael Felton]

Piggybacking on this thread since it seems suitable to me. I played Princes last week (in the Halford Hewitt plate - grr) for the first time in about two and a half years. They have moved a LOT of earth there recently. The old 8th on the Shore is no more and you cannot tell there used to be a hole there. There is a new par 3 in the middle of the Shore 9 that feels a little bit out of place, but is a decent hole. The biggest difference I noticed is what used to be the 7th on the Shore and is now the 8th. The longish par 5 that runs parallel to 7 on Dunes. You used to stand on that tee and you could hit it pretty much anywhere down the right, including onto the aforementioned 7th on Dunes. Now you can't even see the 7th on Dunes. They've built it all up down the right side with dunes and they look perfectly natural to me. Amazing work that they've done.


Lots of other little changes too. On Shore, on 1 the tee area is different. Bunker work on 2, the green on 3 has been largened. 4 I didn't notice a change. 5 is a new hole, 6 has a new tee which changes the angle and I think for the better. 7 no change, 8 I mentioned already and 9 I think might have a new centerline bunker. Not so many changes on Dunes, but 4, the bunkering has all changed and the left side is blown out waste area (they've done a good amount of that around the place - and at Deal too).


If you're in the area I'd suggest going and having a look.