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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« on: June 16, 2021, 12:26:12 PM »
 ??? ???


I think the new handicap system is even worse than the last version. Having eight scores out of twenty is even less of an indication of your present ability than before.


Have a slight tear in my shoulder and haven't been able to hit driver at all for a month or two.  So playing from the junk all day has made it hard to score , refuse to blame y advanced age , yet  8)


Ten straight scores over 80 a couple 90's (ouch) and yet my handicap hasn't moved from 5....pretty ridiculous.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 12:28:57 PM »
I've found that as scores come off the back end of the 20 the handicap swings seem more severe than with 12 or 20. Makes sense as the trimmed moving average will be more impacted by any differential of a "good" score being replaced by a "less good" one.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2021, 12:47:34 PM »
 8)


A system designed to access potential rather than real time scoring ability is inherently flawed.  These guys must never bet on golf  :P

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 12:52:09 PM »
Sounds like Archie's been throwing the party down the beach the last few weeks...

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 01:02:54 PM »
 ;D ;D




Actually no Jimbo san....been playing mostly skin games and made a bunch of birdies and doubles.


But couldn't win a straight up match with anybody who had a pulse...

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 01:17:59 PM »

But couldn't win a straight up match with anybody who had a pulse...
;D

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 04:32:58 PM »
Does it really make that much difference?  Sure using 8 of 20 will provide a lower handicap in most instances but the changes in ESC and the elimination of the 0.96 offset that to some effect. 

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2021, 08:55:22 PM »
??? ???

Have a slight tear in my shoulder and haven't been able to hit driver at all for a month or two. 


Sounds like you're headed for a future entry into the "Rotator Cup"... I had an 85% tear, get ready for Phys therapy
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2021, 11:04:33 PM »
 ??? ....... :P




Ok you shoot     75, 75 73 90 87 86 85 91 80 82  73 79 88 81 80 79 82 85 77 84 77


your buddy shoots


                      78 78 78 78 79 80 75 78 79 76 76 78 78 78 79 80 77 76  79 79


who's better  ?   


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2021, 11:11:38 PM »
He is. That's why the handicap system rewards him.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2021, 12:13:04 AM »
He is. That's why the handicap system rewards him.


best answer yet :)
golf's the only sport where a slumping player expects to have a better chance to win....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2021, 10:08:27 AM »
My handicap stays around six. The only reason is because I will throw in a low number once in a while. I can't play to it on a regular basis anymore. My scores are all over the map.
[/size]
[/size]"Ok you shoot     75, 75 73 90 87 86 85 91 80 82  73 79 88 81 80 79 82 85 77 84 77" are indicative of my scores. [/size]
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Brad Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2021, 10:29:56 AM »
I learned as a club pro the handicap system is screwing us all.  I remember putting scorecards together for matches and each player or team would walk in separately, assess the situation, and proclaim they had no chance to win. 


The handicap system works only as well as the integrity of the players using it. When people feel like they are getting screwed, they begin to justify “cheating”. If they’re all doing it, I have to do it as well.


I used to think that keeping score was a straightforward concept, but players have different agendas.  There are vanity handicaps and handicaps designed to win a member guest. Over time I have become more jaded. I think the system can work very well in your local group but in an event with crowds coming from different places, it is [size=78%]little more than a contest of who wants it more.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size]But more specific to your topic, I preferred the other system to this one.[size=78%]

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2021, 10:50:14 AM »
8)


A system designed to access potential rather than real time scoring ability is inherently flawed.  These guys must never bet on golf  :P

I concur.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2021, 12:59:10 PM »
??? ....... :P




Ok you shoot     75, 75 73 90 87 86 85 91 80 82  73 79 88 81 80 79 82 85 77 84 77


your buddy shoots


                      78 78 78 78 79 80 75 78 79 76 76 78 78 78 79 80 77 76  79 79


who's better  ?   
Are the scores from the same course/tee or different courses/tees?  If different courses/tees you need to see the diff of each round.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2021, 01:17:30 PM »
Archie, what's your solution? Fewer total scores (as in, reduce 20 to 12 or 10 or whatever)? More scores counting (as in, increase 8 to 10 or 12 or 15 or whatever)? Just play better?


 8) ;D


The handicap system has always screwed the guy who's getting worse instead of better. Which is exactly what it should do, I would say, despite worrying that an injury or two of my own might put me in exactly that situation for a little while.


Regardless, I'm rooting for that shoulder to feel better.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2021, 01:30:26 PM »
 8)


 Jason...Play better for sure is always good.


But if we are giving handicaps, they should be accurate. They have set up a system to prevent against the minority who cheat the system, and that doesn't work!


I'd say throw out your high and low of the last ten and go from there, or count them all. If you bowl 200 and 150 your average isn't 200 , it's 175. Throwing out the outlier scores thru-out a round are good, and should be enough to identify "potential" if that's even necessary.




Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2021, 02:06:39 PM »
I mean, I get the idea of using an "average score" or whatever. But there's a problem with that.


Consider your two hypothetical golfers from earlier.


I think we'd both agree Player B is the better player, because he consistently shoots solid scores. Player A sometimes shoots a great score - lower than Player B can pull off - but often shoots mediocre or even bad ones.


So let's say we count more scores in a player's handicap - let's count all of them, just to go to a logical extreme and illustrate the point.


Player A's average score is a little over 81. Let's assume a course with a rating of 72/113 for simplicity's sake. That makes him a 9.6 or so.


Player B's average score is 77.95. So he's a 5.95. Which makes sense so far - he's the better player.


But as the better player, he's screwed. Because anytime he enters a full-field competition, he's always going to run into a bunch of Player As. And some of those Player As will blow up and shoot 90, sure. But some of them are going to shoot that occasional 73. And when they do, they're firing a -8 round.


For Player B to fire a -8, he'd have to shoot 69 or 70. And he just plain isn't capable of doing that. He's a good player, and a consistent one. And he should be rewarded for that consistency. But when you start counting more and more scores, and changing a handicap from a reflection of potential to a reflection of average performance, you inevitably reward the guy whose average performance involves a lot of inconsistency.


Which, I would say, is exactly the OPPOSITE of what a handicap system should do.


To me, one of the joys of being a handicap golfer is that you have two incentives: you're rewarded with a lower handicap as you play better (which I think most of us consider a reward, even if it raises the standard by which we must perform to win), and you're also rewarded if you consistently play somewhere near your level of ability. Consistency allows you to win more matches and contend in more events or games, even on days when you're not on your A-game.


To me, it's a no-brainer that a system based on potential is far superior to one based on average, even though I know it sucks when you're in a slump or injured and that cap seems like it takes forever to rise.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2021, 02:21:55 PM »
There is no system that people won’t complain about!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2021, 04:38:02 PM »
 8)


Jason I'm with you on the math and we just think differently about it .  We play for money all the time, and put everything in the hole even if it's a kick in in my regular group. So the consistent player typically wins most of his individual matches if he plays enough guys in the group. Everyone is pretty competitive , maybe more so than many would like here. But that's ok it's my preference as we have been doing that since we were caddies as kids.


So if someone is getting murdered we will often make the game on the first tee based on recent performances , we used to play the trend. So the guy who has talent but not consistency wins when he plays good , most of the time he donates.


i just think if you generally shoot eighty you shouldn't be a 2/3 handicap based on the occasional low score
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 05:15:38 PM by archie_struthers »

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2021, 11:37:44 PM »
Not sure how to fix this, but for me a condition reared it’s head causing a need for fusion surgery and some leg damage. I was able to play again in a few months. Now 50 yards shorter and playing once or twice a month, it costs a lot of money when you have a 3 handicap but can’t break 90 for a year. But I love my group and pay some fine people. Now the tables will turn as my now high handicap should start down.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2021, 11:41:48 PM »
How is it worse? 8 of 20 resulted in almost no change to the 10 of 20 * 0.96.

Handicaps are about potential moreso than average ability/score.

I think the handicap system, for being pretty simple (just two numbers for every course), is pretty great.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2021, 04:58:07 AM »
I've long thought there are about 8 categories of golfers in need of a handicap (So not pros)


Plus handicap amateurs shoot under par in competition with some regularity.
Scratch players can shoot par at least 50% of the time off the back tees.
75 shooters
80 shooters
85
90
95
100+


Why can't we simplify it all by having, say +,scratch, 3,8,14,20,25 and 30?


To move either way you have to prove you're playing well enough to justify it - or not well enough.
Just when people say a good course should 'test every club in the bag', is there really any difference between a 5 iron and a 6 iron?
Is there really any difference between an 84 and an 85?
Aside from the obvious:)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 05:00:02 AM by Mike_Clayton »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2021, 08:11:23 AM »
I've long thought there are about 8 categories of golfers in need of a handicap (So not pros)


Plus handicap amateurs shoot under par in competition with some regularity.
Scratch players can shoot par at least 50% of the time off the back tees.
75 shooters
80 shooters
85
90
95
100+


Why can't we simplify it all by having, say +,scratch, 3,8,14,20,25 and 30?


To move either way you have to prove you're playing well enough to justify it - or not well enough.
Just when people say a good course should 'test every club in the bag', is there really any difference between a 5 iron and a 6 iron?
Is there really any difference between an 84 and an 85?
Aside from the obvious:)

This would make more sense if based on the previous USGA system rather than the current system. No longer is a scratch a scratch.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicap system is even worse now (ot)
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2021, 08:51:01 AM »
How is it worse? 8 of 20 resulted in almost no change to the 10 of 20 * 0.96.

Handicaps are about potential moreso than average ability/score.

I think the handicap system, for being pretty simple (just two numbers for every course), is pretty great.
is, and agree. 


I'll piggyback on this and agree.

The only difference I've noticed in the revised system is that my index drops marginally more quickly than it used to if I have a great round or a few good ones in a row, which I would assume was the intent of the revision. 


My only "complaint" about the new system is the net double bogey piece, which strikes me as more complicated than the old method of dealing with high numbers.  But I understand why that was done.

Any system that makes it possible for a better player to lose to a lesser player while shooting a lower score is going to be complained about endlessly; good players, by definition, do NOT like to lose, and they REALLY don't like losing to a chop.  But if the individuals are using the system correctly, and the governing body is applying the numbers correctly, it is a remarkably simple system for competition that makes golf absolutely unique.

I have found, from experience not only as a player but from heading an MGA at a golf-only club that ran a LOT of net events, that the system rewards players who play EVERY round by the Rules.  No mulligan on the first tee, no preferred lies, full stroke and distance penalties (or the two stroke alternative) no gimmes, etc.  Those players post 100% accurate scores, and have a 100% accurate handicap, and are used to playing under the Rules.  They tend to fare quite well in net competitions, and from time to time get accused of sandbagging by players who have vanity indexes. 


Often, the "problem" in the system is misdiagnosed as being about the high index guy who played well, instead of why the low index guy didn't.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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