Player perceptions, exceptions and ‘Divine golfing rights’

[Thomas Dai]

On another thread the publishing of various stats by a chap named Lou Stagner on Twitter was mentioned. Interesting numbers he’s been posting, so thanks to him if he’s ‘lurking’, but they got me thinking, which is likely dangerous , about players perceptions, expectations and what I shall term their self considered ‘divine golfing rights’.
Some examples -
Loads of players seem to perceive, expect that they 1 or 2 putt every green.
Loads of players seem to perceive, expect par-5’s to be reachable in two shots.
Loads of players perceive, expect to always get a perfect lie and stance.
Loads of players perceive, expect that they are good enough to play from the back/middle tees.
Loads of players perceive, expect to hole every putt inside 10-15 ft.
Loads of players perceive, expect that trees are 90% air.
Etc
And of course it’s not their fault, it’s someone else’s, usually the maintenance crew, if their perceptions, their expectation, their self considered ‘divine golfing rights’ aren’t met or achieved.
Thoughts?
Atb

[David_Tepper]

When you say "loads," I think you are exaggerating by loads.

There may be a small minority of low-single digit and scratch golfers who have some of the expectations mentioned. But I doubt the vast majority of double-digit handicaps (which are the vast majority of golfers) expect to reach par-5's in two or hole every putt from 10-15 feet.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Loads of players think their slice will endo up in the water.

[Stewart Abramson]

"Loads of players seem to perceive, expect that they 1 or 2 putt every green.[/size]Loads of players seem to perceive, expect par-5’s to be reachable in two shots.Loads of players perceive, expect to always get a perfect lie and stance.Loads of players perceive, expect that they are good enough to play from the back/middle tees.Loads of players perceive, expect to hole every putt inside 10-15 ft.Loads of players perceive, expect that trees are 90% air."


Thomas, you must not play with many double digit handicappers,


Some of my perceived "divine golfing rights" are:


If I have a tee time I expect the course to get me out at the assigned time


I expect to have a set of tees (or a combination set) between 5,900 yards and 6,250 yards)


I expect to play in less than 4 hours in a four ball


I expect there to be sand in the bunkers (although not necessarily smooth)


I expect the greens to run at a fairly consistent speed


I expect the course to be available (and accurately mapped) on my GPS watch


I expect not to be paired with a-holes


I expect to be smiling when I walk off the 18th green


I hope (but don't expect) to be allowed to walk using a trolley


I'm a 13  index. My personal playing expectations are much more modest than the ones you listedI'm hoping to have at least 4 pars per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one double bogey per nine holesI'm hoping to have at least one on-putt per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one three- putt per nine holesI'm hoping that my score on a par 72 course will be 85 or lessI'm okay if the first digit in my score is an 8 and disappointed if it's a 9I'm hoping to have at least two tee shots on each 9 be longer than 200 yardsI'm hoping to hit 3 greens out of the four par 3's  and hoping to birdie one[/size]

[Terry Lavin]

"Loads of players seem to perceive, expect that they 1 or 2 putt every green.Loads of players seem to perceive, expect par-5’s to be reachable in two shots.Loads of players perceive, expect to always get a perfect lie and stance.Loads of players perceive, expect that they are good enough to play from the back/middle tees.Loads of players perceive, expect to hole every putt inside 10-15 ft.Loads of players perceive, expect that trees are 90% air."


Thomas, you must not play with many double digit handicappers,


Some of my perceived "divine golfing rights" are:


If I have a tee time I expect the course to get me out at the assigned time


I expect to have a set of tees (or a combination set) between 5,900 yards and 6,250 yards)


I expect to play in less than 4 hours in a four ball


I expect there to be sand in the bunkers (although not necessarily smooth)


I expect the greens to run at a fairly consistent speed


I expect the course to be available (and accurately mapped) on my GPS watch


I expect not to be paired with a-holes


I expect to be smiling when I walk off the 18th green


I hope (but don't expect) to be allowed to walk using a trolley


I'm a 13  index. My personal playing expectations are much more modest than the ones you listedI'm hoping to have at least 4 pars per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one double bogey per nine holesI'm hoping to have at least one on-putt per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one three- putt per nine holesI'm hoping that my score on a par 72 course will be 85 or lessI'm okay if the first digit in my score is an 8 and disappointed if it's a 9I'm hoping to have at least two tee shots on each 9 be longer than 200 yardsI'm hoping to hit 3 greens out of the four par 3's  and hoping to birdie one

Well said!

[jeffwarne]

"Loads of players seem to perceive, expect that they 1 or 2 putt every green.Loads of players seem to perceive, expect par-5’s to be reachable in two shots.Loads of players perceive, expect to always get a perfect lie and stance.Loads of players perceive, expect that they are good enough to play from the back/middle tees.Loads of players perceive, expect to hole every putt inside 10-15 ft.Loads of players perceive, expect that trees are 90% air."


Thomas, you must not play with many double digit handicappers,


Some of my perceived "divine golfing rights" are:


If I have a tee time I expect the course to get me out at the assigned time


I expect to have a set of tees (or a combination set) between 5,900 yards and 6,250 yards)


I expect to play in less than 4 hours in a four ball


I expect there to be sand in the bunkers (although not necessarily smooth)


I expect the greens to run at a fairly consistent speed


I expect the course to be available (and accurately mapped) on my GPS watch


I expect not to be paired with a-holes


I expect to be smiling when I walk off the 18th green


I hope (but don't expect) to be allowed to walk using a trolley


I'm a 13  index. My personal playing expectations are much more modest than the ones you listedI'm hoping to have at least 4 pars per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one double bogey per nine holesI'm hoping to have at least one on-putt per nine holesI'm hoping to have no more than one three- putt per nine holesI'm hoping that my score on a par 72 course will be 85 or lessI'm okay if the first digit in my score is an 8 and disappointed if it's a 9I'm hoping to have at least two tee shots on each 9 be longer than 200 yardsI'm hoping to hit 3 greens out of the four par 3's  and hoping to birdie one

Well said!

Very interesting how everyone has a set of expectations that they deem reasonable.
On the surface Stewart's would seem quite reasonable, but it does amaze me how wide and varied these expectations can be.
I'd be curious at what price point the above expectations would be expected.
Specifically:


'expecting" to play 18 holes in 4 hours in a 4 ball (unlikely at any well known muni such as Bethpage etc.)
certainly unlikely at any modern monstrocity built to the scale of the modern game with "native grasses" and other assorted eye candy and hazards.
and also unlikely at most well known heavily touristed/busy overseas courses.4:20-4:30? perhaps
Many places?, sure 4 hours or less, but a bit of a high EXPECTATION for multiple 4 balls that surely would leave one disappointed more often than not when travelling.
I am fully aware it CAN and OFTEN is done-I see it every day(and personally often play 4 balls much faster on uncrowded courses), just not the norm at many places that are readily accessible.
All that said,  I'm with Stewart on the 4 hours but that is merely my preference, so therefore I tend to book at times of day where it is doable, but my day absolutely wouldn't be ruined if a 4 hour expectation isn't met on a busy course that I had chosen to play in a peak time(of which there are many lately)
I would however not enjoy a steady diet of two balls or singles exercising their divine right to play through when there is nowhere to go in front.


Greens "consistent" in speed
by what definition? a shaded green might be more moist at a certain time of day and another at the same time be be quite crispy if elevated and exposed. Part of the game is judgement and identifying the differences in color,texture and firmness with one's eyes and feet.


Sand in bunkers-On a windy, exposed site, there is often variability.
Again judgement in using the appropriate club, shot attempted and appropriate use of the bounce(or not) distinguishes better players from less so.
That's why they are called hazards-some places really work hard to make sand more "consistent" and that cost is passed on to the customer.


Course being accurately mapped for GPS. Perhaps...
Failing this, a visible  150 goes a long way


being paired with A holes-I do not know how a daily fee club controls this, but if at a private, and it happens consistently, it may be time to consider what category the staff has put you in.


Not to pick on Stewart(whose list is quite reasonable and limited), or anyone else, it's just that every single person shows up with many additional and unique expectations of their own, and eventually that's how you get so many things that just aren't needed in golf.
I guess one of the good things about the pandemic golf boom is that the balance is no longer tilted towards the demands of the consumer, as it was for many years post recession, and many courses leaned towards a race to the bottom to satisfy the price needs and demands of an over saturated market.
balance has definitely returned to the market-at least in the short run.

[Ira Fishman]

I expect that there be a cup in each green.


I expect that the teeing grounds be reasonably level.


I expect that on a warm day that there is water somehow provided.


I expect that if the course does not return to the clubhouse mid-round that there be a bathroom available.


The last two expectations are related.


I have some strong preferences especially regarding pace of play and avoiding a-holes, but as Jeff points out, my choice about where and when to play impacts being able to satisfy those preferences.


Ira

[Kyle Harris]

Lou Stagner also posted the infamous Ian Scott-Taylor Links Magazine article with the forged documents used a source material as fact and when confront with the evidence refused to either retract of present the article as anything other than factual.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just some random thoughts, even if this topic probably deserves a better thought out answer.


From an gca perspective, some seem to forget that this process of turning situations into "divine rights" (or just "rights")  has probably been going on since TOC replaced the whins with turf in the 1800's......And the Golden Age guys wrote of it, to a certain degree, as in Ross stating bunkers ought to be steep enough at the edges for golfers to avoid a tough lie up against the lip.


That it has continued to perfect bunkers and greens, as well as (less so) level tees, and it mirrors the upgrade of lifestyles in general in wealthy countries.  So, why shouldn't it?  Yeah, golfers were willing to put up with bad conditions when they were trying to temporarily forget that they were in a potato famine, but when your first world problems reduce, perhaps your expectations rise.


Part of it is customer driven, and part of it is technology driven, and part of it is business driven.  I asked myself, is the "right" to two putts, and it's more accurate corollary, a second put of under 3 feet being almost level, golfer driven, or GM driven?  Of course, the GM wants to keep up pace of play, but that is also derived from golfers bitching about 5 hour rounds, and perhaps it is one of the few things design and maintenance can do to achieve that major goal.


I do believe there is a difference between your expectations for your most frequently played courses, vs. going for a special trip to some resort, where your expectation is driven by seeing/playing something different, more than score or camaraderie.   It is hard to pin it down since 25 million golfers probably have different expectations, and only a few mentioned are so common to be included on a list. 


As one industry guy I know puts it, most golfers just want to shoot within a few strokes of their normal score, and tend to complain about any design or maintenance feature that raises their score too high (piling up a big score in Mac's terms).  That can be green contours that treat them like a baby treats a diaper, long rough that costs them 5 balls (and $35) per round (As Pete Dye famously said, Pinehurst was so successful because it's hard to lose a golf ball there).  Those diaper fillers obviously vary with every golfer, probably leading the trend to somewhat turf heavy, playable golf courses.  We could all name most of the design features that have been "watered down" in the name of accommodating the D players, even if we don't like them, and they do serve a purpose at every day courses.


Is that bad design? Golf courses are businesses, and most businesses operate on the mantra of "The customer is always right, no?"

[Tom_Doak]

Someone I know in the financial world once said “Expectations are Disappointment Futures”.  (I don’t know if he stole the line from someone else.)


Life is better the less expectations you have for it, and so is golf.


As an example, I played a course today for the first time that is two weeks from opening.  It’s pretty rough around the edges, the bunkers are not cleaned up, and if you looked at it you’d say it’s not ready for prime time.  Yet over 18 holes, there were only two fairway lies where I wanted to roll the ball over, and I was only in one bunker anyway.


TL;DR  People get themselves very worked up over stuff that makes absolutely no difference.

[Sean_A]

My expectations vary from place to place. You wouldn't buy a Ford and expect the quality of a car twice the price...would you? I only have a few serious hopes/desires for golf courses and I have largely learned how to meet these hopes by being very selective about the courses I choose to play and the seasons to play them. Of course, if the green fee is quite cheap my hope really comes down finding a couple of cool holes and a decent walk. Hoping for much more than that will often lead to disappointment. But if I am paying 150 quid my hopes for the day are quite inflated, I think rightfully so. Even then, I am very selective in my choices.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Agree with the previous sentiment in the prior posts.  Golfers expect many things, but most of those in the original post aren't on the radar for nearly everyone I've played with. Of the ones listed, this is the only one which comes close for me...

"Loads of players seem to perceive, expect that they 1 or 2 putt every green."

[jeffwarne]

Someone I know in the financial world once said “Expectations are Disappointment Futures”.  (I don’t know if he stole the line from someone else.)


Life is better the less expectations you have for it, and so is golf.


As an example, I played a course today for the first time that is two weeks from opening.  It’s pretty rough around the edges, the bunkers are not cleaned up, and if you looked at it you’d say it’s not ready for prime time.  Yet over 18 holes, there were only two fairway lies where I wanted to roll the ball over, and I was only in one bunker anyway.


TL;DR  People get themselves very worked up over stuff that makes absolutely no difference.

so how was the new St. Patricks?

[Mark Mammel]

Someone I know in the financial world once said “Expectations are Disappointment Futures”.  (I don’t know if he stole the line from someone else.)


Life is better the less expectations you have for it, and so is golf.

Wisdom here. My wife told me some time ago, as age was taking it's toll (69 at the moment), "you'll have more fun if you lower your expectations." True, and also I am more fun to play with.


TL;DR  People get themselves very worked up over stuff that makes absolutely no difference.

[Thomas Dai]

Some nice twists and turns here. And I stick by my original word 'loads' and the examples coz I hear and see see them rather frequently on and around golf courses and I play with players of very varied hcps, ages, gender etc.
One other word I thought about using in the OP was 'desire' ('ambition' was another).
For example, I desire to play 18-holes in a 4-ball in less than 4 hours, but do I expect to always do so, is it my divine right to do so and should I get upset if I don't? Um, frankly no.
Maybe it's a society thing or an personality/ego/vanity trait, but many folks do seem to desire, to expect, a lot in relation to golf and their own golf.
And to take things a little further, are golfers expectations, desires and perceived 'divine rights' becoming ever greater?
atb

[BCrosby]

Lou Stagner also posted the infamous Ian Scott-Taylor Links Magazine article with the forged documents used a source material as fact and when confront with the evidence refused to either retract of present the article as anything other than factual.

I did not know that. Interesting.


Bob

[Kyle Harris]

Lou Stagner also posted the infamous Ian Scott-Taylor Links Magazine article with the forged documents used a source material as fact and when confront with the evidence refused to either retract of present the article as anything other than factual.

I did not know that. Interesting.


Bob

This was around the Masters last November as part of a campaign to suggest that Mackenzie “knew” that equipment and distance was getting longer and that’s why he envisioned 13 as a Par 4.


He is deft at curating data to fit an agenda that much is for certain.

[Jim Sherma]

Expectations are an interesting aspect of golf. The game is a solitary endeavor against the course and, for the most part, this breeds more of an issue with inappropriate/unattainable expectations than in other games. Certainly one of the reasons that I think match play is much more conducive to enjoyment than stroke play. A lot can be forgiven if playing a good match.


I am fortunate enough to usually play private clubs and like to think that I can adjust my expectations to different circumstances accordingly. Things that get under my skin based on expectations versus reality:


> Please tell me that the greens are aerated - I may or may not choose to play, but if I do I'll be fine with what I find
> Please have some consistency with the bunkers - firm or soft is fine, having no real idea what's under the ball is just sloppy - and if you use a power rake please smooth out the internal locus and the outer edges a little
> Greenskeepers who don't really care about the details of what they are doing - replaced cups should be level with the green, fringe edges should not be all over the map with scalping and shrinkage due to sloppy and indifferent mowing - I get that green speed and smoothness is a function of budget, but these are the types of things that are simply a function of caring about one's craft
> The idea that you can have deep rough, fast greens and fast pace of play - if you want sub 4-hour rounds and members posting scores where they hole everything out and don't play the "leaf rule" all year round then you need to set up the course accordingly, or accept that you'll have a lot of grinding over 4-6 foot putts and stomping around the rough looking for balls. Or just play mostly match play and don't post non-conforming scores