Rees Jones Exorcism | Torrey Pines

[jeffwarne]

Come on gents.  Isn’t it possible to like a course that is not great architecturally, but great for other reasons? 

Torrey is a great site with an average design, but it’s got tons of history, it’s a true muni, and it’s a nice walk.  I’ve only played it once 10 years ago, but it made a definite positive impression.

That the US Open was ever played there and may become a regular site is just really cool.

I will be watching all weekend.   

Yes.  Exactly.  Same.

ditto


seems worthy of a new thread
Pros for Torrey as an Open site

June weather good


a USGA like test is possible there, without killing the grass.
Let's face it, architecture means little when a course is soft(see Congressional/Valhalla/Erin Hills-etc. in the rain) and becomes silly when the USGA has to kill the grass/plinko putt to get somewhere near their preordained acceptable score.


Modern long, tough for pros in firm/fast June conditions
Keeps the powers that be away from bastardizing historic classic courses
an accessible muni-one of the few an average Joe can play-not cheap but not $500 plus a caddie fee


prime time TV viewing
great views-both when playing and viewing on TV
pros seem to accept it as a good course for an Open


I'll take it

[Pete_Pittock]

could it be known as the Sandpines of southern California? Like most US Open courses the tall rough will negate much of the architecture

[Pete Lavallee]

I’ve been marshaling there the past two days and here are my observations:


Fairway rough has a 6’ wide collar of 1”, then a 12’ wide strip of 2”, followed by 4-5” stuff. There is probably only 10% Kikuyu in the fairway rough; it’s mostly Poa Annua with seed heads and Rye that has been cut. The constant over seeding of the rough for the Farmers inhibits the growth of the Kikuyu here. We’ve had a very dry spring and the rough is probably not as penal as the USGA would like.   


Fairways are perfect with at least 95% Kikuyu. Most average about 25 yards wide. One knock about the design is the ribbon straight fairway mowing lines; a little serpentine action would definitely add some variety.


Green side rough is very deep with closer to 20% Kikuyu, most likely a byproduct of the new irrigation system where each head can be individually controlled.


All fairway bunkers are surrounded by rough so don’t look for Bryson or Phil to try bombing one over them.


Putting greens are probably the best they’ve been since the redesign with 100% Poa Annua.


There are probably 1000 less trees than seen in 2008. The bark beetle has decimated the Torrey Pines and many Eucalyptus have also been removed. The views across the property have been greatly improved.


The recent bunker project has completely changed the nature of them. Previously they had a near vertical turf wall of about 3-4’, with a flat sand base. Now the sand is flashed up to the lips which are only 1-2’ high. Definitely easier to get out of and maintain. This was one of Phil’s biggest criticism of the redesign. Perhaps he will be able to showcase his sand skills to better effect now.


Although it has been very warm in SD this week Torrey is a pleasant mid 70’s with some marine layer keeping things cool. The sea breeze has picked up past noon and the players in the afternoon will have to contend with that.


The only significant architectural changes are the par 4 10th now plays 450 yards, no longer a long iron wedge hole. A new fairway bunker on the left will need to be carried to gain the optimum angle into the green. The par 5 9th now has a cross bunker on the right about 80 from the green. There is also a new chipping area back left that will lead to difficult up and downs to a back left pin if the player goes long. The 4th hole has had the fairway line shifted to the left and it now hugs the cliff as close as possible. However the slope to the left is very severe and no one will consciously play to there for a better angle; indeed a shot landing a few paces in the left will bounce into complete perdition. The fronting green side bunker was shifted from the left to the center of the green.

[Jon Sweet]

Jon,


From my experience watching the last US Open and the yearly stop ON TV, Torrey Pines has never stood out to me as having great architectural interest. I also think the pond on 18 is atrocious. However, having just breezed through San Diego at the start of a Nat'l Parks tour of California with my family, I had a chance to stop by the resort and have a quick peek around.


I was clear that I had underestimated the land movement and that I was probably ignorant to the reality that the course is better than I had judged from only seeing it on television. Your "strong" opinions haven't been backed up by any specific details other than telling us you've played it virtually. I think that is the reason for others' (fair) critiques of your posts.


Offer specifics when you jump full bore into such discussions.


Cheers

Let's do it.
Holes 1,2,5,6,7 dog legs to the right, almost all bunkers left and right in the landing area.
Bunker right bunker left surrounding the green.
4 and 9 dead straight, ones roughly 500 yards as a 4 and the other is a 600 yard par 5.
Nothing really special there.
One uphill 3 one down hill 3, so at least a little change there.
One does have a pretty view?
That's just the front.
The par 5 that goes down the hill and back up it is pretty cool and has a little soul.
We at least get to a dog leg to the left by the 14th.
Followed up by a bland straight away 15th.
Perhaps playing it might get me to give it a slight bump, but I doubt it.
This is far more in defense of my opinion than anyone has given in support of theirs sans one person.
Really not setting out to hurt anyone's feelings, simply find the course to be average at best.
I genuinely feel removed from where it is, you'd have never heard of it.
To be fair, I find myself to be a slightly above average looking guy.


Cheers!

[Tim Leahy]

Jon,


From my experience watching the last US Open and the yearly stop ON TV, Torrey Pines has never stood out to me as having great architectural interest. I also think the pond on 18 is atrocious. However, having just breezed through San Diego at the start of a Nat'l Parks tour of California with my family, I had a chance to stop by the resort and have a quick peek around.


I was clear that I had underestimated the land movement and that I was probably ignorant to the reality that the course is better than I had judged from only seeing it on television. Your "strong" opinions haven't been backed up by any specific details other than telling us you've played it virtually. I think that is the reason for others' (fair) critiques of your posts.


Offer specifics when you jump full bore into such discussions.


Cheers

Let's do it.
Holes 1,2,5,6,7 dog legs to the right, almost all bunkers left and right in the landing area.
Bunker right bunker left surrounding the green.
4 and 9 dead straight, ones roughly 500 yards as a 4 and the other is a 600 yard par 5.
Nothing really special there.
One uphill 3 one down hill 3, so at least a little change there.
One does have a pretty view?
That's just the front.
The par 5 that goes down the hill and back up it is pretty cool and has a little soul.
We at least get to a dog leg to the left by the 14th.
Followed up by a bland straight away 15th.
Perhaps playing it might get me to give it a slight bump, but I doubt it.
This is far more in defense of my opinion than anyone has given in support of theirs sans one person.
Really not setting out to hurt anyone's feelings, simply find the course to be average at best.
I genuinely feel removed from where it is, you'd have never heard of it.
To be fair, I find myself to be a slightly above average looking guy.


Cheers!

I've never seen you or met you but based on your posts I am sure your a less than average looking guy with a bland personality.

[Peter Pallotta]

To put it simply (if not correctly): Torrey Pines is the very epitome of a DECADE's golf course: perfectly suited to the modern game and its data-driven ethos, and thus ideally aligned with the USGA's over-arching goal of hosting the sternest-and-yet-fairest-championship-test in all of professional golf, and preternaturally blessed by having been the venue for a thrilling US Open playoff win by the greatest of all time, in one of his greatest and gutsiest performances ever -- all the while serving for decades as an extremely popular, always busy and very public municipal course in one of the most golf-loving and sun-drenched regions of the country, with the magnificent Pacific as a backdrop. All in all, this so-called 'missed opportunity' has done pretty well for itself. Heck, if I missed my opportunities half as well as Torrey Pines did, I'd be a billionaire by now!

[Sean_A]

Come on gents.  Isn’t it possible to like a course that is not great architecturally, but great for other reasons? 

Torrey is a great site with an average design, but it’s got tons of history, it’s a true muni, and it’s a nice walk.  I’ve only played it once 10 years ago, but it made a definite positive impression.

That the US Open was ever played there and may become a regular site is just really cool.

I will be watching all weekend.   

Yes.  Exactly.  Same.

ditto


seems worthy of a new thread
Pros for Torrey as an Open site

June weather good


a USGA like test is possible there, without killing the grass.
Let's face it, architecture means little when a course is soft(see Congressional/Valhalla/Erin Hills-etc. in the rain) and becomes silly when the USGA has to kill the grass/plinko putt to get somewhere near their preordained acceptable score.


Modern long, tough for pros in firm/fast June conditions
Keeps the powers that be away from bastardizing historic classic courses
an accessible muni-one of the few an average Joe can play-not cheap but not $500 plus a caddie fee


prime time TV viewing
great views-both when playing and viewing on TV
pros seem to accept it as a good course for an Open


I'll take it

Watching golf in the UK is a true test of interest. I don't have SKY, so golf costs extra to stream. I think I have to pay for an entire month to access the US Open on NOWTV. Honestly, being so-so on the event, Torrey Pines hasn't convinced me to spend the money. I kinda wish all tv was a straight decision of pay per view. I would probably watch less TV.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Been watching events at TP for many years on TV and the only thing I immediately recall about the place is the pond on the 18th and the para-gliders. At other (allegedly) high echelon courses I've seen on TV I can usually recall a lot.
atb

[Jason Thurman]

These boring-ass greens sure do produce a lot of big breakers. Interested in hearing what works and doesn't about them from people who have putted on them.

[archie_struthers]

 


really liked Jeff Warnes' answer   +1

[Rob Marshall]

They really took a lot of trees out. Really noticeable on 16 from the last time I was there.

[Ben Hollerbach]

How much of the want surrounding the golf course is related to its proximity to the cliff edge and coastline?


Is it difficult to evaluate the course as it is because there is land between the course and the cliffs, thus there is a desire to route the course closer to the cliffs and a viewed missed opportunity?


If the golf course existed 1,000 yards inland, where the ocean was still visible in the distance but there were no cliffs nearby, would opinions on the course be different?


What did the land look like before the Army built an airbase on it? how much of the "blandness" of the course property is due to the Army's earth work?

[Tim Leahy]

How much of the want surrounding the golf course is related to its proximity to the cliff edge and coastline?


Is it difficult to evaluate the course as it is because there is land between the course and the cliffs, thus there is a desire to route the course closer to the cliffs and a viewed missed opportunity?


If the golf course existed 1,000 yards inland, where the ocean was still visible in the distance but there were no cliffs nearby, would opinions on the course be different?


What did the land look like before the Army built an airbase on it? how much of the "blandness" of the course property is due to the Army's earth work?

Cliff holes don't have the best record in Cali. Trump's course in PV lost two holes to the ocean, Olympic Club Ocean lost a hole, Half Moon Bay lost two 18th hole greens, and Pebble lost a tee box. My guess is the city of SD told Bell to play it safe and not risk losing any cliff holes. Jones has moved some holes closer to the cliffs but I bet he still has restraints.

[Bruce Katona]

So Baltusrol (Lower) or Torrey for a US Open venue.  Been to both, played both, lots of knocks on both on GCA.


I enjoyed both and really liked TP North for strike 3.

[David_Tepper]

While it may or may not be relevant, Torrey Pines has produced an impressive list of winners in the Farmers tournament.


In the last 29 years (since 1993), that event has been won just 7 times by players who have not won a major (P. Jacobsen, N. Watney, J. Rahm, M. Leishman, S. Stallings and twice by B. Snedeker).

Major winners who have won at Torrey 22 times are T. Woods (6x), P. Mickelson (3x), J. Day (2x), C. Stadler, J. Daly, J.M. Olazabal, D. Love, M. O'Meara, S. Simpson, J. Daly, B. Crane, B. Watson, J. Rose and P. Reed.


It can be debated whether or not good golf courses identify good golfers. There is no denying Torrey Pines has done so.


 

[William_G]

good point David T.
Also thanks to Pete L. for his on the ground insights.

TW, PM among the Cali boys killing it at Torrey.
Fortunate to have played there, and it really is nice for a muni on the ocean with views forever but..............
From TV all I remember is the pond on 18 and the paragliders,  for sure, LOL
How unatural is it to have all that healthy turf in the desert on the ocean, It is faux golf at best.
The course sucks TBH, nice cart paths that serpentine throughout though, LOL.
Would be better if they went with something more like Wilshire CC.

[Charles Lund]

By coincidence, I had looked up winners going back to the 50s, in precursors to the Farmers.  You will also see Littler, Casper, Bolt, Palmer, Nicklaus, Player, Tom Watson, Fuzzy Zoeller, Johnny Miller, besides the winners Dave Tepper mentions. 


You can also look up past winners of World Junior Championship winners at the tournament hosted there over the years, an impressive list.



The surprise breaks, hard to read greens, juicy greenside rough, and sloping fairways that reduce the effective width of fairways and favor players who work it into slopes are what public players encounter when they play the course.


We'll see what kind of drama unfolds over the weekend.  I'm glad I can play it at the Senior Resident rate and like the fact that a muni course I like and play is hosting the U.S. Open again.


I had the good fortune of making a hole in one on #3 in 2010.  The experience adds to my viewing enjoyment.


Charles Lund

[Rob Marshall]

good point David T.
Also thanks to Pete L. for his on the ground insights.

TW, PM among the Cali boys killing it at Torrey.
Fortunate to have played there, and it really is nice for a muni on the ocean with views forever but..............
From TV all I remember is the pond on 18 and the paragliders,  for sure, LOL
How unatural is it to have all that healthy turf in the desert on the ocean, It is faux golf at best.
The course sucks TBH, nice cart paths that serpentine throughout though, LOL.
Would be better if they went with something more like Wilshire CC.

Im surprised they didn’t shut down the paragliders this week.

[jeffwarne]

good point David T.
Also thanks to Pete L. for his on the ground insights.

TW, PM among the Cali boys killing it at Torrey.
Fortunate to have played there, and it really is nice for a muni on the ocean with views forever but..............
From TV all I remember is the pond on 18 and the paragliders,  for sure, LOL
How unatural is it to have all that healthy turf in the desert on the ocean, It is faux golf at best.
The course sucks TBH, nice cart paths that serpentine throughout though, LOL.
Would be better if they went with something more like Wilshire CC.

You can't remember holes 3, 4,7? Sorry I've not watched much of the back yet, but 14 is certainly an amazing greensite and 17 has a daunting canyon left. Yep the lake on 18 is unattractive, much like 15 at ANGC(I wish it was another arid canyon, but it's not)
Seems like every green I look at has a canyon lurking in the background
Many/most of the holes provide a test with both terrain, slope in fairways, firmness etc.
Balls not properly shaped or striped don't hit the fairway, yet we are seeing all kinds of players succeed-unlike Winged Foot where we found out who was longest and strongest-5 inch rye-be damned.
which is what you get when the fad police (no trees) take over.


The three par 3s I've seen have great variety in length, green design. Gap wedge, 9 iron and long iron(edit 16 is also a long par 3-6 ironish today,with another canyon left)
Goodness, at Medinah they play the same par 3 twice.
It's not perfect-it's a muni-Let me repeat that. It's a muni, that anyone can play-and if you live in the area, it's affordable.


it's in an area with perfect June weather, producing perfect firm fast, true conditions. not the usual plinko USGA greens that their agronomist spends two years "perfecting" only to watch balls bobble and fail to hold their line on mottled shitty surfaces-easy to protect par with shitty, bumpy greens.. and it's in prime time.
Lots to like.


Next year we get a course cobbled together from two uber waspy courses the public could never play and in two years we get to return to the Fadland of hand raked , restovation aesthetics open to the uber rich of the(mostly) right ethnicity and religion , so not to worry.Both are fantastic courses I'm excited to see on TV,I may add-but they are decidedly not munis open to the public.


i think way too many people are wrapped up in the aesthetic(which aren't our preferences) of the bunkers at Torrey.But I bet they're a good thing when they are machine raking them ahead of 6 am daily play-they play no easier or harder due to their amoeba shape than they would with frilly faddy edges.
Of course they could go with a different aesthetic,(less rye green) but they have many, many rounds annually and a Tour event in January.


As I've stated before, I've been there 3 times but not played it.
Each visit, plus each TV Open only wants to make me play it more.
I've played Kiawah three times, each time determined to see what I missed-given all the love it gets here.
Turns out I was right the first time-and watching it on TV again did nothing to change the opinion of not wanting to return.(though it was a fantastic event and well suited to today's elite player)

[Rob Marshall]

I think TP is looking great and this is setting up to be a fun Sunday night.

[Terry Lavin]

TP has proved, again, to be a good test for the best, but it’s gruesome television. Today has been especially dull.


I know that sounds bitter, but perhaps the USGA will ease the agony by finding some more accessible hole locations in the final round. The big name guys have taken a couple big steps to assert themselves, that’s for sure, but it’s been borderline unwatchable.


At the end of the proverbial day, it’s the US Open, which is almost always a grind of a championship. Grinding might identify the most fortunate player, but it doesn’t always provide interesting competition.


But there’s always tomorrow!

[jeffwarne]

TP has proved, again, to be a good test for the best, but it’s gruesome television. Today has been especially dull.


I know that sounds bitter, but perhaps the USGA will ease the agony by finding some more accessible hole locations in the final round. The big name guys have taken a couple big steps to assert themselves, that’s for sure, but it’s been borderline unwatchable.


At the end of the proverbial day, it’s the US Open, which is almost always a grind of a championship. Grinding might identify the most fortunate player, but it doesn’t always provide interesting competition.


But there’s always tomorrow!

as you know, I'm no USGA defender...
but, it's the US Open-with a distinct identity


Masters=birdie fest/wide scoring dispersion
US Open=grind
Open=weather/survival or lights out
PGA-depends on which identity/schedule they're going with that year(which is why it's so forgettable)

[Terry Lavin]

JW:


I’m in agreement with your pithy analysis, but sometimes the grind ain’t all that watchable. The kite surfers were more appealing than most of the golf today. They better dial it back mañana.

[jeffwarne]

JW:


I’m in agreement with your pithy analysis, but sometimes the grind ain’t all that watchable. The kite surfers were more appealing than most of the golf today. They better dial it back mañana.

Hope you hung on for Louis;)

[Bruce Katona]

Not one bitch, moan or complaint from any of the participants over the first 3 days of the event - it appears to me everyone has got it correct so far.


Lets hope tomorrow is a repeat.


I'm lovin' it.