Rees Jones Exorcism | Torrey Pines

[Jeff_Brauer]

I noticed in the second photo from Mike Sweeny that the left side intermediate cut is one mower pass wide, while the right side is 5 mower passes wide.  It looks like the USGA decided the fairways need to be even narrower, but weren't going to pay to re-grass the fairways out to the fw bunker, instead, opting to have a wider intermediate cut to bring the bunker into play.  Not sure it works, even if it was the lowest cost solution, unless someone can tell me the reasoning other than cost that it was done.

[Mike Sweeney]

I noticed in the second photo from Mike Sweeny that the left side intermediate cut is one mower pass wide, while the right side is 5 mower passes wide.

Jeff,


Just as a reference date, that was from July 2019. They had something like 16 holes open, and two holes left to go in the renovation...

[Jon Sweet]

Played TPS weekly for two years prior to the last renovation and it's better now. Loved the course and all its subtleties and the only thing dull about the course is the imaginations of those that don't understand it. If your too cheap to drop the 2 bills on the non-resident rate, then move along so there are more tee times for the residents. 

What in the world does the price of the tee time have to do with the architectural significance of the golf course? I can take you to a  $18 dollar public course here in Richmond with more imagination than that track.  No offense, I will save the $182 bucks and play something with a little soul.

[Carl Rogers]

Is TP hole 18 the most one dimensional finisher in the entire rota?

Don't most U.S. Opens finish with a long par 4? How can a risk/reward par 5 be more one dimensional than that?

The options of play are quite limited.
Second shot options for the tour pro are:
1. Lay up: turning the hole into a lob wedge par 3.
2. Avoid the pond by hitting over the green or into the stands taking a drop.


If the landing area fairway bunkers and rough were eliminated, the pond pushed to the side, a pot bunker placed 20 yards in front of the green and even some trees that would require some amount of under or over imagination the hole might possess some drama.

[Jason Thurman]

For a hole that possesses no drama, it sure has been the center of a lot of drama.

[Tim Leahy]

Played TPS weekly for two years prior to the last renovation and it's better now. Loved the course and all its subtleties and the only thing dull about the course is the imaginations of those that don't understand it. If your too cheap to drop the 2 bills on the non-resident rate, then move along so there are more tee times for the residents. 

What in the world does the price of the tee time have to do with the architectural significance of the golf course? I can take you to a  $18 dollar public course here in Richmond with more imagination than that track.  No offense, I will save the $182 bucks and play something with a little soul.

The price matters because most that don't like it have never played it or played it once because of the cost and don't see the subtle greatness of the course.

[Rob Marshall]

Never understood the dislike. I played pre and post renovation and I thought it was great.

[Jon Sweet]

Played TPS weekly for two years prior to the last renovation and it's better now. Loved the course and all its subtleties and the only thing dull about the course is the imaginations of those that don't understand it. If your too cheap to drop the 2 bills on the non-resident rate, then move along so there are more tee times for the residents. 

What in the world does the price of the tee time have to do with the architectural significance of the golf course? I can take you to a  $18 dollar public course here in Richmond with more imagination than that track.  No offense, I will save the $182 bucks and play something with a little soul.

The price matters because most that don't like it have never played it or played it once because of the cost and don't see the subtle greatness of the course.

I have never played Cypress Point, and I can assure you I can look and tell you it's miles better than Torrey. Incredibly bland golf course at best. If it was anywhere else on earth you'd have never ever heard of it. Price is zero part of this equation.

[Steve Lang]

   Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

[Brian Finn]

A nice shopping mall with plenty of parking would be an improvement.  What a waste of a great piece of property that course is.

What would you do differently? 

[Tim Leahy]

  Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

+1 

[Jon Sweet]

  Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

Trying to determine if you are saying I need to have played the course to have an opinion on it or if I need to be a good player to have an opinion on it?
If either are the case, I would assume we would need to disband the website in it's entirety.
Never played it, have zero desire to.
Again, as bland as it gets.
My opinion here isn't anything that's all that far out there.
I play to a 6 if that's important to you, and far better players than me share my opinion regarding the course.
It's in my opinion the worst course to host an open in the last 50 years followed closely by Chambers Bay and Erin Hills. At least those two had a bit of flair.
Maybe everyone should post their course resume and handicap in their bios?

[Rob Marshall]

Have you walked the entire course or just seen it on TV?

[Brad Lawrence]

A nice shopping mall with plenty of parking would be an improvement.  What a waste of a great piece of property that course is.

What would you do differently?

Anything other than your all too typical, modern day, sterile and forgettable golf course.  It’s certainly not a bad course per se, but I can’t see that it’s anything better than average and certainly not close to on par with a typical U.S. Open rotation golf course.

[Jason Thurman]

  Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

Trying to determine if you are saying I need to have played the course to have an opinion on it or if I need to be a good player to have an opinion on it?
If either are the case, I would assume we would need to disband the website in it's entirety.

I think you can have an opinion on just about any course. But I generally agree with the many who give a lot more credit to firsthand opinions than TV-based ones, and it can only help to know where a person's opinion came from.


It's sort of a catch 22 though, admittedly. I also haven't played Torrey. I'm also not especially interested in playing it. From what I know about it - which is quite a bit for a course I've never played, given its level of exposure - it's not a place where I feel confident that I would walk away happy to have spent $300 or whatever to play.


The downside of choosing not to play it is that some will not give much credence to my opinions on it. The upside is that I still have $300. But it certainly doesn't look awful. I'd pay $150, happily.

[Jon Sweet]

Have you walked the entire course or just seen it on TV?

Rob
I destroyed it on Tiger Woods golf. It was boring then too.

[Jon Sweet]

  Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

Trying to determine if you are saying I need to have played the course to have an opinion on it or if I need to be a good player to have an opinion on it?
If either are the case, I would assume we would need to disband the website in it's entirety.

I think you can have an opinion on just about any course. But I generally agree with the many who give a lot more credit to firsthand opinions than TV-based ones, and it can only help to know where a person's opinion came from.


It's sort of a catch 22 though, admittedly. I also haven't played Torrey. I'm also not especially interested in playing it. From what I know about it - which is quite a bit for a course I've never played, given its level of exposure - it's not a place where I feel confident that I would walk away happy to have spent $300 or whatever to play.


The downside of choosing not to play it is that some will not give much credence to my opinions on it. The upside is that I still have $300. But it certainly doesn't look awful. I'd pay $150, happily.

Back to my original statement, the cost to play the course has zero to do with the quality of the course itself. 

[Brian Finn]

A nice shopping mall with plenty of parking would be an improvement.  What a waste of a great piece of property that course is.

What would you do differently?

Anything other than your all too typical, modern day, sterile and forgettable golf course.  It’s certainly not a bad course per se, but I can’t see that it’s anything better than average and certainly not close to on par with a typical U.S. Open rotation golf course.

OK, so you’ve backed off the shopping mall idea?  I mean, with the state of the brick and mortar retail industry, it just doesn’t make a whole lot of business sense, does it? If you had said solar farm or even high end residential property, perhaps you’d have gotten some backers, but shopping malls just don’t make much sense these days, do they? 

Beyond that silliness, this my issue with so much criticism I see and hear of golf courses.  It sucks. It should be so much better.  It’s below average. So, what would you actually change?  Routing?  Bunkers? Greens?  Grassing lines?  And how?

I understand the vast majority of us here are not experts, many not even really well-informed. But, i do think we should be able to make some proposals or brainstorm an idea or two if we are going to say the course should be so much better.

FWIW, I am a TP fan. The South Course may not reach its potential, but it is a well above average course, in my experience.  I’ve got somewhere between 50 and 100 rounds on it, so i feel i know the course pretty well.

Even so, i can think of a number of things that would make it better, at least for everyday play. For a US Open or annual tour event, it’s pretty perfect. However, for the other 50 weeks of the year, I’d love to see more interesting greens and surrounds, as well as an entirely different approach to bunkering (more strategic and varied).  I’d also strongly consider looking into returning many acres to a non-irrigated, more natural state, similar to what you might see while hiking along the cliffs, just outside the golf courses. This has been a win for many other courses, aesthetically, environmentally, and financially.  Those are just a few things I’ve thought about over the years, each time TP South gets its annual flogging.

[Brad Lawrence]

  Jon,


So what'd you shoot at TP, N or S?

I would assume the implication here is that you need to play a course before you can opine on it. I’ve been playing golf for 35 years, I’ve competed at almost every level, and I was a club pro for a decade. But I’ve only been fortunate enough to play three of the top 100.  Should I denounce my GCA membership?


Being on the property can certainly help to shape your feelings about the scope and soul of a facility, but rarely would the experience take your ranking from an A to C or C to A.  Trying to delegitimize someone’s opinion because they haven’t played it seems like a cheap shot. 

[Brad Lawrence]

A nice shopping mall with plenty of parking would be an improvement.  What a waste of a great piece of property that course is.

What would you do differently?

Anything other than your all too typical, modern day, sterile and forgettable golf course.  It’s certainly not a bad course per se, but I can’t see that it’s anything better than average and certainly not close to on par with a typical U.S. Open rotation golf course.

OK, so you’ve backed off the shopping mall idea?  I mean, with the state of the brick and mortar retail industry, it just doesn’t make a whole lot of business sense, does it? If you had said solar farm or even high end residential property, perhaps you’d have gotten some backers, but shopping malls just don’t make much sense these days, do they? 

Beyond that silliness, this my issue with so much criticism I see and hear of golf courses.  It sucks. It should be so much better.  It’s below average. So, what would you actually change?  Routing?  Bunkers? Greens?  Grassing lines?  And how?

I understand the vast majority of us here are not experts, many not even really well-informed. But, i do think we should be able to make some proposals or brainstorm an idea or two if we are going to say the course should be so much better.

FWIW, I am a TP fan. The South Course may not reach its potential, but it is a well above average course, in my experience.  I’ve got somewhere between 50 and 100 rounds on it, so i feel i know the course pretty well.

Even so, i can think of a number of things that would make it better, at least for everyday play. For a US Open or annual tour event, it’s pretty perfect. However, for the other 50 weeks of the year, I’d love to see more interesting greens and surrounds, as well as an entirely different approach to bunkering (more strategic and varied).  I’d also strongly consider looking into returning many acres to a non-irrigated, more natural state, similar to what you might see while hiking along the cliffs, just outside the golf courses. This has been a win for many other courses, aesthetically, environmentally, and financially.  Those are just a few things I’ve thought about over the years, each time TP South gets its annual flogging.

I respect your opinion.  These conversations would be boring if we always agreed.  I’m not sure any of us can be “experts”.  I’ve spent countless hours thinking about architecture.  In school, my margins were always full of doodled golf holes, but is my opinion worth more than someone who just started playing?  I’d say no. 


It can be hard for me to explain why I love or loathe a course.  I just do.  It’s like a face or a painting.  It speaks to you.  Why is Charlize Theron beautiful?  I can’t explain it. 

[Jim Sherma]

When discussing courses that are suited to their purpose I would say that TP seems to easily fit the bill:


Able to host a tour event and major championships from both an infrastructure and challenge standpoint - check
Able to get revenue high enough to make it a viable business venture for the owners (municipality) - check
Able to keep a full tee sheet at the pricing structure they have - check
Good course for the paying clientele for rest of year - based on the tee sheet and anecdotal stuff read here - check


This would easily seem to be a facility that is well suited to the needs of those writing the checks. The course's long views over the pacific clearly help out on all of these and is the main selling point of the location. However, the views add little to the playing values of the course itself, other than the views themselves of course. the course's rightful peer group for comparison should other "championship" courses built on a somewhat flattish site without a lot of natural features to work off of. I have not played the course but am wondering if there are any natural features that were unused or poorly utilized that Bell and/or Reese could have used to better affect, subject to any restrictions that any architect would be constrained by. 


Is this a course that I would go out of my way to play? No, but I also don't want to go out of my way to play many similar parkland tour courses (Congressional (pre-latest reno), Hazeltine, Bellerive, Atlanta Athletic, Medinah, etc.). Would I turn down a round at any of them? Certainly not, I am sure they are all very good courses suited to the needs their owners defined for them.


If someone wants to prove me wrong here are some questions I'd have:


Other than the views and the weather is there anything that I would see there that I would not see at many other similar courses?
What are the individual shots that stick in your mind well after playing that you look forward to playing again and again?
If I was getting on a plane to go play golf somewhere special why there instead of the many other choices?

[Rob Marshall]

"Other than the views and the weather is there anything that I would see there that I would not see at many other similar courses?What are the individual shots that stick in your mind well after playing that you look forward to playing again and again?If I was getting on a plane to go play golf somewhere special why there instead of the many other choices?"


I would ask the same questions about The Ocean Course. Probably the most overrated course I've ever played IMO.

[Brian Finn]

A nice shopping mall with plenty of parking would be an improvement.  What a waste of a great piece of property that course is.

What would you do differently?

Anything other than your all too typical, modern day, sterile and forgettable golf course.  It’s certainly not a bad course per se, but I can’t see that it’s anything better than average and certainly not close to on par with a typical U.S. Open rotation golf course.

OK, so you’ve backed off the shopping mall idea?  I mean, with the state of the brick and mortar retail industry, it just doesn’t make a whole lot of business sense, does it? If you had said solar farm or even high end residential property, perhaps you’d have gotten some backers, but shopping malls just don’t make much sense these days, do they? 

Beyond that silliness, this my issue with so much criticism I see and hear of golf courses.  It sucks. It should be so much better.  It’s below average. So, what would you actually change?  Routing?  Bunkers? Greens?  Grassing lines?  And how?

I understand the vast majority of us here are not experts, many not even really well-informed. But, i do think we should be able to make some proposals or brainstorm an idea or two if we are going to say the course should be so much better.

FWIW, I am a TP fan. The South Course may not reach its potential, but it is a well above average course, in my experience.  I’ve got somewhere between 50 and 100 rounds on it, so i feel i know the course pretty well.

Even so, i can think of a number of things that would make it better, at least for everyday play. For a US Open or annual tour event, it’s pretty perfect. However, for the other 50 weeks of the year, I’d love to see more interesting greens and surrounds, as well as an entirely different approach to bunkering (more strategic and varied).  I’d also strongly consider looking into returning many acres to a non-irrigated, more natural state, similar to what you might see while hiking along the cliffs, just outside the golf courses. This has been a win for many other courses, aesthetically, environmentally, and financially.  Those are just a few things I’ve thought about over the years, each time TP South gets its annual flogging.

I respect your opinion.  These conversations would be boring if we always agreed.  I’m not sure any of us can be “experts”.  I’ve spent countless hours thinking about architecture.  In school, my margins were always full of doodled golf holes, but is my opinion worth more than someone who just started playing?  I’d say no. 

It can be hard for me to explain why I love or loathe a course.  I just do.  It’s like a face or a painting.  It speaks to you.  Why is Charlize Theron beautiful?  I can’t explain it.

I understand, but isn’t the point of this discussion group to at least try to explain our likes and dislikes?  If every comment on this board were “i like it” or “i hate it” without any additional context or attempt at explanation, it would be absolutely pointless. To say you can’t explain why you like or don’t like something may be true, but then why comment, especially so strongly?

[Jim Hoak]

I agree, Brian.  If your point were followed, it might also have the added benefit of shortening some of the threads by eliminating comments that add little to the discussion.

[Jon Sweet]

Googling synonyms for bland and uninspired.