Rees Jones Exorcism | Torrey Pines

[jeffwarne]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.

I find those sentences at odds with each other.
Shinny's had 2 recent Opens and the greens were plinko-both times. (I pin that squarely on the USGA as Shinny has wonderful greens)
Just not sure how you can say "nobody wants to see bumpy greens" than say you'll take what you saw at Shinny over what we saw at Torrey. Evidently, you want to see bumpy greens if you chose "what you saw at Shinny".


At TP, I saw the best leaderboard by far I've seen in a major until the two leaders separated themselves late.
I saw one of the best finishes I've ever seen in a major.
I saw great shots rewarded and those who continually bailed, eventually punished(see Bryson)
I saw many kids of players have success. Bubba, Bryson, Rahm, Koepka, Henley,Shauffele ,Morikawa
I saw firm, yet healthy turf.
Stunning views on TV.


I love Shinecock. It's one of my favorite courses in the world.
I detest what the USGA has done to it the last two visits, and frankly feel TP as presented was a far better test.(I hate the word test, but I hate plinko greens worse)
If those are my choices, i'll take TP.
I'd prefer to see the Shinny that's presented every summer, and an improved TP, but it seems those aren't real choices.

What I saw at Torrey was a PGA Championship - a major on a second tier course playing fairly ordinary conditions.   If that’s the future of the US Open, it’s open to be considered the third best major..... IMO.

Fair enough.
I'd like to see the PGA there as well.
And I certainly accept it is not a Shinnecock, Oakmont or PB.


Not so sure about "ordinary" conditions. June is just a good time in coastal San Diego for turf. They didn't have to lose the grass to firm it up-and it was plenty firm. Ironically, the last Open at Shinny the weather was ideal(coolish) and it rained two of the days-yet they still lost the greens.
-6 at TP on a par 71(278 vs 281 at Shinny) isn't exactly low, and players were able to make putts at TP so that plinko defense wasn't there(easily good for 5-6 shots over 72 holes.

[Charles Lund]

Just about everything about golf is counter-intuitive. 


A regular tour stop on a Doak 5 muni has produced two compelling U.S. Open Championships with Tiger Woods winning on a course he has dominated on since playing as a Junior.  On Sunday, Jon Rahm, #2 ranked player wins over more than several of the top ranked players in the world, with a stellar finish.


Seems it worked well twice, if the point was not to embarrass the best players, but to identify the best player.


Charles Lund

[Tim Leahy]

Let the PGA be played on private courses with no public access. Keep the US Open on truly open public golf courses. TPS is a national treasure as much as St. Andrews is to Scotland.

[David_Tepper]

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2021/6/22/what-needs-to-happen-for-torrey-pines-to-host-another-us-open

[Brad Lawrence]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.

I find those sentences at odds with each other.
Shinny's had 2 recent Opens and the greens were plinko-both times. (I pin that squarely on the USGA as Shinny has wonderful greens)
Just not sure how you can say "nobody wants to see bumpy greens" than say you'll take what you saw at Shinny over what we saw at Torrey. Evidently, you want to see bumpy greens if you chose "what you saw at Shinny".


At TP, I saw the best leaderboard by far I've seen in a major until the two leaders separated themselves late.
I saw one of the best finishes I've ever seen in a major.
I saw great shots rewarded and those who continually bailed, eventually punished(see Bryson)
I saw many kids of players have success. Bubba, Bryson, Rahm, Koepka, Henley,Shauffele ,Morikawa
I saw firm, yet healthy turf.
Stunning views on TV.


I love Shinecock. It's one of my favorite courses in the world.
I detest what the USGA has done to it the last two visits, and frankly feel TP as presented was a far better test.(I hate the word test, but I hate plinko greens worse)
If those are my choices, i'll take TP.
I'd prefer to see the Shinny that's presented every summer, and an improved TP, but it seems those aren't real choices.

What I saw at Torrey was a PGA Championship - a major on a second tier course playing fairly ordinary conditions.   If that’s the future of the US Open, it’s open to be considered the third best major..... IMO.

Fair enough.
I'd like to see the PGA there as well.
And I certainly accept it is not a Shinnecock, Oakmont or PB.


Not so sure about "ordinary" conditions. June is just a good time in coastal San Diego for turf. They didn't have to lose the grass to firm it up-and it was plenty firm. Ironically, the last Open at Shinny the weather was ideal(coolish) and it rained two of the days-yet they still lost the greens.
-6 at TP on a par 71(278 vs 281 at Shinny) isn't exactly low, and players were able to make putts at TP so that plinko defense wasn't there(easily good for 5-6 shots over 72 holes.

Rahm shot 278.  Only one person shot that low on this course earlier this year at the farmers insurance, and they play the much easier course one day.


I didn’t see anything that was unfair about Saturday at SH. I saw one of the best courses in the world playing about as hard as it can possibly play for the world’s best players for our national championship, and I loved it.

[Charles Lund]

The thread is getting to be like Hey Jude.....


Charles Lund

[jeffwarne]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.

I find those sentences at odds with each other.
Shinny's had 2 recent Opens and the greens were plinko-both times. (I pin that squarely on the USGA as Shinny has wonderful greens)
Just not sure how you can say "nobody wants to see bumpy greens" than say you'll take what you saw at Shinny over what we saw at Torrey. Evidently, you want to see bumpy greens if you chose "what you saw at Shinny".


At TP, I saw the best leaderboard by far I've seen in a major until the two leaders separated themselves late.
I saw one of the best finishes I've ever seen in a major.
I saw great shots rewarded and those who continually bailed, eventually punished(see Bryson)
I saw many kids of players have success. Bubba, Bryson, Rahm, Koepka, Henley,Shauffele ,Morikawa
I saw firm, yet healthy turf.
Stunning views on TV.


I love Shinecock. It's one of my favorite courses in the world.
I detest what the USGA has done to it the last two visits, and frankly feel TP as presented was a far better test.(I hate the word test, but I hate plinko greens worse)
If those are my choices, i'll take TP.
I'd prefer to see the Shinny that's presented every summer, and an improved TP, but it seems those aren't real choices.

What I saw at Torrey was a PGA Championship - a major on a second tier course playing fairly ordinary conditions.   If that’s the future of the US Open, it’s open to be considered the third best major..... IMO.

Fair enough.
I'd like to see the PGA there as well.
And I certainly accept it is not a Shinnecock, Oakmont or PB.


Not so sure about "ordinary" conditions. June is just a good time in coastal San Diego for turf. They didn't have to lose the grass to firm it up-and it was plenty firm. Ironically, the last Open at Shinny the weather was ideal(coolish) and it rained two of the days-yet they still lost the greens.
-6 at TP on a par 71(278 vs 281 at Shinny) isn't exactly low, and players were able to make putts at TP so that plinko defense wasn't there(easily good for 5-6 shots over 72 holes.

I didn’t see anything that was unfair about Saturday at SH. I saw one of the best courses in the world playing about as hard as it can possibly play for the world’s best players for our national championship, and I loved it.

So why then did the USGA saturate the course for Sunday, nearly giving up a 62?
You forgot about Thurday where the greens were a bumpy mess as well.
When you go an hour and see no one make an 8 footer, there might be a problem.
rain on Friday saved that day.


It is one of the best courses in the world-every summer, except June 2004 and 2018 on a couple of select days

[Brad Lawrence]

“So why then did the USGA saturate the course for Sunday?”

[/size]I didn’t get invited to that meeting but my first guess would be it’s because so many fans and players cry about a very difficult golf course.  Who wants to see the world’s best players have to try to grind out and manufacture a four? I would say the fact that someone almost shot 62 on Sunday is evidence it was a poor decision to saturate the course.  By all means, let’s make sure our national championship looks like the Ollie’s Invitational.
[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]

[Jason Thurman]

The thread is getting to be like Hey Jude.....


Charles Lund

I'm stealing this line it's fantastic.

[Brad Lawrence]

The thread is getting to be like Hey Jude.....


Charles Lund

I'm stealing this line it's fantastic.

I don’t get it.  Lol. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Brad -
I can't really speak for Jeff, but I think his point is that Shinnecock's greatness wasn't enhanced by the USGA in 2004 & 2018, but instead diminished; and that the architecture & design intent of one the very finest golf courses in the entire world wasn't highlighted by the set-up/conditions during those US Opens, but instead almost completely neutered. In other words: Shinnecock in 2018 was indeed a 'test' -- it just wasn't 'Shinnecock'. [If you'd like to see it playing as both a true championship 'test' and as 'Shinnecock', check out the 1986 US Open that Ray Floyd won there with a score of -1, as the only player to finish under par.] And since Jeff absolutely loves the golf course, I think he may be asking/saying to the USGA: 'If you don't want great classic courses like Shinnecock to actually *play* like the great classic courses that they are, why go there to host your championship in the first place?'

[jeffwarne]

The thread is getting to be like Hey Jude.....


Charles Lund

I'm stealing this line it's fantastic.

I was thinking Tom Petty...


yep, I think you captured the spirit of my posts Peter

[Kalen Braley]

The thread is getting to be like Hey Jude.....

Charles Lund

I'm stealing this line it's fantastic.

I don’t get it.  Lol.

Agreed,

Who or what is supposed to be Julian Lennon and who is getting divorced?  I'm guessing many would like to see the USGA get divorced from TPS.. 

[Jon Sweet]

Seen numerous well thought out criticisms of the course itself. Just overall an average track. Nothing special. About middle of the road other than the location.
Defenses posted:
1. It’s tough! Ok? Tough doesn’t = good. I really don’t care about the score relative to par. The number doesn’t matter anyways.
2. Anyone can play it! Ok? I don’t need to be able to play a course to know it’s a good course. Accessibility plays no part in it for me. I’d imagine at some point based off what I do and where I caddie eventually I’ll find a way on to Augusta. I’ve walked it inside the ropes north of 70 times and putted and chipped all the greens from everywhere you can putt from. Just because it’s exclusive doesn’t change my like of it one way or the other.
3. The last hole produced drama/Tiger made a putt! Ok? It’s an easily reachable par 5 for almost the entire field and the 72nd hole of a major. Fairly certain any reachable par 5 would produce similar results at a major… for example that other snoozefest course in KY think Rory and Tiger.
4. The holes play into an ocean breeze? Ok?
5. KaKooYah. Never been a big grass guy so I’m missing all the excitement, maybe Carl Spackler can dig a little deeper with his NOCAL sintzomina sp?
6. The best player won! Tiger in his prime hard to beat, Rahm on quite a run as well, well all know cut short and I won’t reference the vax thread.
7. It’s a value for residents/it’s priced amazing… In a forum regarding architecture the price you pay to play has zero to do with the course. I suppose someone could start an OT thread for best value in golf.
All in all I stand by the point I’ve made and others have made as well, fairly average course that’s hosted two opens.
Nothing personal.
Just my opinion.
We can refrain from name calling, cheap shots, whatever else over a course someone most likely long dead designed that unless Rees is in here as a ghost writer, nobody has a professional interest in. That’s it.

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s better than Pasatiempo. Just my opinion based on playing both courses. I’d choose Torrey 7-3.

[Jason Thurman]

Jon, we get it.


Even after all these pages though, you haven't mustered a single specific and solid criticism yourself. Your last post takes people's defenses of the course and attempts to negate them with generalities, but it's really just you yelling "it sucks because I think it sucks" some more. It's an awesomely hot take, but you and Brad have both sung your refrains 64 times already. Write a verse or go back to Twitter where discussion that shallow belongs.


Also, Valhalla's a blast and it literally never fails to deliver awesomely memorable tournaments, so I definitely see the comparison. But let me guess... you've never played that one either, have you?

[Rob Marshall]

Seen numerous well thought out criticisms of the course itself. Just overall an average track. Nothing special. About middle of the road other than the location.
Defenses posted:
1. It’s tough! Ok? Tough doesn’t = good. I really don’t care about the score relative to par. The number doesn’t matter anyways.
2. Anyone can play it! Ok? I don’t need to be able to play a course to know it’s a good course. Accessibility plays no part in it for me. I’d imagine at some point based off what I do and where I caddie eventually I’ll find a way on to Augusta. I’ve walked it inside the ropes north of 70 times and putted and chipped all the greens from everywhere you can putt from. Just because it’s exclusive doesn’t change my like of it one way or the other.
3. The last hole produced drama/Tiger made a putt! Ok? It’s an easily reachable par 5 for almost the entire field and the 72nd hole of a major. Fairly certain any reachable par 5 would produce similar results at a major… for example that other snoozefest course in KY think Rory and Tiger.
4. The holes play into an ocean breeze? Ok?
5. KaKooYah. Never been a big grass guy so I’m missing all the excitement, maybe Carl Spackler can dig a little deeper with his NOCAL sintzomina sp?
6. The best player won! Tiger in his prime hard to beat, Rahm on quite a run as well, well all know cut short and I won’t reference the vax thread.
7. It’s a value for residents/it’s priced amazing… In a forum regarding architecture the price you pay to play has zero to do with the course. I suppose someone could start an OT thread for best value in golf.
All in all I stand by the point I’ve made and others have made as well, fairly average course that’s hosted two opens.
Nothing personal.
Just my opinion.
We can refrain from name calling, cheap shots, whatever else over a course someone most likely long dead designed that unless Rees is in here as a ghost writer, nobody has a professional interest in. That’s it.

You caddied at Augusta but haven’t played it?

[Brad Lawrence]

Jon, we get it.


Even after all these pages though, you haven't mustered a single specific and solid criticism yourself. Your last post takes people's defenses of the course and attempts to negate them with generalities, but it's really just you yelling "it sucks because I think it sucks" some more. It's an awesomely hot take, but you and Brad have both sung your refrains 64 times already. Write a verse or go back to Twitter where discussion that shallow belongs.


Also, Valhalla's a blast and it literally never fails to deliver awesomely memorable tournaments, so I definitely see the comparison. But let me guess... you've never played that one either, have you?

The worst golf course in this country has a good chance that top players will win and the finish will be exciting. I don’t see how that’s an argument for or against a golf course.  But if that’s a deciding factor for you, I’m fine with that as I respect your opinion, unlike vice versa.


And why make personal attacks because someone has a different opinion of a golf course? I wouldn’t call you shallow because you dislike one of my favorite courses.  Why don’t you just PM me when I am welcome to opine in your presence?

[Jon Sweet]

It’s better than Pasatiempo. Just my opinion based on playing both courses. I’d choose Torrey 7-3.

Bold take.

[Jon Sweet]

Jon, we get it.


Even after all these pages though, you haven't mustered a single specific and solid criticism yourself. Your last post takes people's defenses of the course and attempts to negate them with generalities, but it's really just you yelling "it sucks because I think it sucks" some more. It's an awesomely hot take, but you and Brad have both sung your refrains 64 times already. Write a verse or go back to Twitter where discussion that shallow belongs.


Also, Valhalla's a blast and it literally never fails to deliver awesomely memorable tournaments, so I definitely see the comparison. But let me guess... you've never played that one either, have you?

I posted much earlier in this thread point by point my criticism. I got tired after the front 9 alone.

[Jon Sweet]

Seen numerous well thought out criticisms of the course itself. Just overall an average track. Nothing special. About middle of the road other than the location.
Defenses posted:
1. It’s tough! Ok? Tough doesn’t = good. I really don’t care about the score relative to par. The number doesn’t matter anyways.
2. Anyone can play it! Ok? I don’t need to be able to play a course to know it’s a good course. Accessibility plays no part in it for me. I’d imagine at some point based off what I do and where I caddie eventually I’ll find a way on to Augusta. I’ve walked it inside the ropes north of 70 times and putted and chipped all the greens from everywhere you can putt from. Just because it’s exclusive doesn’t change my like of it one way or the other.
3. The last hole produced drama/Tiger made a putt! Ok? It’s an easily reachable par 5 for almost the entire field and the 72nd hole of a major. Fairly certain any reachable par 5 would produce similar results at a major… for example that other snoozefest course in KY think Rory and Tiger.
4. The holes play into an ocean breeze? Ok?
5. KaKooYah. Never been a big grass guy so I’m missing all the excitement, maybe Carl Spackler can dig a little deeper with his NOCAL sintzomina sp?
6. The best player won! Tiger in his prime hard to beat, Rahm on quite a run as well, well all know cut short and I won’t reference the vax thread.
7. It’s a value for residents/it’s priced amazing… In a forum regarding architecture the price you pay to play has zero to do with the course. I suppose someone could start an OT thread for best value in golf.
All in all I stand by the point I’ve made and others have made as well, fairly average course that’s hosted two opens.
Nothing personal.
Just my opinion.
We can refrain from name calling, cheap shots, whatever else over a course someone most likely long dead designed that unless Rees is in here as a ghost writer, nobody has a professional interest in. That’s it.

You caddied at Augusta but haven’t played it?

Had a medical issue where I needed to return to VA. Money at Augusta wasn’t really that good so decided to stay. May go back at some point once retired but I doubt it.

[Ira Fishman]

Seen numerous well thought out criticisms of the course itself. Just overall an average track. Nothing special. About middle of the road other than the location.
Defenses posted:
1. It’s tough! Ok? Tough doesn’t = good. I really don’t care about the score relative to par. The number doesn’t matter anyways.
2. Anyone can play it! Ok? I don’t need to be able to play a course to know it’s a good course. Accessibility plays no part in it for me. I’d imagine at some point based off what I do and where I caddie eventually I’ll find a way on to Augusta. I’ve walked it inside the ropes north of 70 times and putted and chipped all the greens from everywhere you can putt from. Just because it’s exclusive doesn’t change my like of it one way or the other.
3. The last hole produced drama/Tiger made a putt! Ok? It’s an easily reachable par 5 for almost the entire field and the 72nd hole of a major. Fairly certain any reachable par 5 would produce similar results at a major… for example that other snoozefest course in KY think Rory and Tiger.
4. The holes play into an ocean breeze? Ok?
5. KaKooYah. Never been a big grass guy so I’m missing all the excitement, maybe Carl Spackler can dig a little deeper with his NOCAL sintzomina sp?
6. The best player won! Tiger in his prime hard to beat, Rahm on quite a run as well, well all know cut short and I won’t reference the vax thread.
7. It’s a value for residents/it’s priced amazing… In a forum regarding architecture the price you pay to play has zero to do with the course. I suppose someone could start an OT thread for best value in golf.
All in all I stand by the point I’ve made and others have made as well, fairly average course that’s hosted two opens.
Nothing personal.
Just my opinion.
We can refrain from name calling, cheap shots, whatever else over a course someone most likely long dead designed that unless Rees is in here as a ghost writer, nobody has a professional interest in. That’s it.

Jon,


Several people posted specific architectural points about TPS, including about specific holes, yet you ignore those points in your rebuttal. I urge you in particular to read the posts in this thread and the other TPS thread from Jeff Warne who probably has played more courses around the world than most of us combined.


Ira

[Jon Sweet]

Jon,


Several people posted specific architectural points about TPS, including about specific holes, yet you ignore those points in your rebuttal. I urge you in particular to read the posts in this thread and the other TPS thread from Jeff Warne who probably has played more courses around the world than most of us combined.


Ira

Tim L is the only one I recalled that went hole by hole top of my head. While I don’t agree with him, he at least took a stab at it.  He mentioned into the breeze and so forth. Jeff called the holes great, alluded to it being public and not a right wing rich guy club, I believe talked a bit about the green complexes as I recall after going through it. Not once have I attacked anyone personally, just simply think the course is average at best. That’s not bad, not great. Just average. Ho hum. I’m no Tiger sheep, I’m not from the area, my mom doesn’t work there, I didn’t grow up playing it, I most likely never will and have no desire to. So I don’t really get the vitriol associated with simply stating an opinion. As my good friend says, it be like that. No hard feelings.
I’ll attempt to find the other thread you’re speaking of, but I don’t think it will change my mind. I do enjoy the back and forth. Wish people would stop with the personal insults although it does make me laugh to see people get so worked up over a golf course.

[Rob Marshall]

Jon,


Several people posted specific architectural points about TPS, including about specific holes, yet you ignore those points in your rebuttal. I urge you in particular to read the posts in this thread and the other TPS thread from Jeff Warne who probably has played more courses around the world than most of us combined.


Ira

Tim L is the only one I recalled that went hole by hole top of my head. While I don’t agree with him, he at least took a stab at it.  He mentioned into the breeze and so forth. Jeff called the holes great, alluded to it being public and not a right wing rich guy club, I believe talked a bit about the green complexes as I recall after going through it. Not once have I attacked anyone personally, just simply think the course is average at best. That’s not bad, not great. Just average. Ho hum. I’m no Tiger sheep, I’m not from the area, my mom doesn’t work there, I didn’t grow up playing it, I most likely never will and have no desire to. So I don’t really get the vitriol associated with simply stating an opinion. As my good friend says, it be like that. No hard feelings.
I’ll attempt to find the other thread you’re speaking of, but I don’t think it will change my mind. I do enjoy the back and forth. Wish people would stop with the personal insults although it does make me laugh to see people get so worked up over a golf course.

I find it hard to believe that Jeff would ever say that a course was " [/size]not a right wing rich guy club".[/color]

[jeffwarne]

Jon,


Several people posted specific architectural points about TPS, including about specific holes, yet you ignore those points in your rebuttal. I urge you in particular to read the posts in this thread and the other TPS thread from Jeff Warne who probably has played more courses around the world than most of us combined.


Ira

Tim L is the only one I recalled that went hole by hole top of my head. While I don’t agree with him, he at least took a stab at it.  He mentioned into the breeze and so forth. Jeff called the holes great, alluded to it being public and not a right wing rich guy club, I believe talked a bit about the green complexes as I recall after going through it. Not once have I attacked anyone personally, just simply think the course is average at best. That’s not bad, not great. Just average. Ho hum. I’m no Tiger sheep, I’m not from the area, my mom doesn’t work there, I didn’t grow up playing it, I most likely never will and have no desire to. So I don’t really get the vitriol associated with simply stating an opinion. As my good friend says, it be like that. No hard feelings.
I’ll attempt to find the other thread you’re speaking of, but I don’t think it will change my mind. I do enjoy the back and forth. Wish people would stop with the personal insults although it does make me laugh to see people get so worked up over a golf course.

I find it hard to believe that Jeff would ever say that a course was "not a right wing rich guy club".

LOL
Not sure I know what that is.
Seems like it would make the hang gliders pull a certain direction if they got off the ground at all...