Rees Jones Exorcism | Torrey Pines

[Peter Pallotta]

The not-so-untold-story:
Jason Gore, the USGA's players relations director -- and apparently also a key part of the course set-up team.
Players as different as Paul Casey and Phil Mickelson went out of their ways to single out/thank JG for what they both said was an excellent-ideal set-up.

[Jason Thurman]

It's a lot easier to get the setup right on a course that's very well-suited for the task.


Torrey may not be architecturally enthralling, but it's clearly a fantastic test of elite-level golf.


The funny thing is that, even though it's not a "strategic" course in a lot of ways, it ends up really testing course management and presenting a lot of risk/reward at the elite level. These guys are really good, and they're also working with pretty solid analytics now. If you give them a "strategic" hole, they'll generally calculate the right way to play it pretty quickly. Holes like 10 at Riviera or 13/15 at Augusta aren't really all that compelling at the pro level anymore because these dudes know how to play them, which has reduced them to relatively simple tests of execution.


Somehow, a hole like 13 at Torrey that completely lacks nuance becomes genuinely compelling at the elite level because of the difficulty of execution it demands. Sure, the big boys all step to the tee hoping to hit a great drive and have a chance to reach in two... but then they hit the tee shot and all kinds of shit starts happening.

[Kalen Braley]

We've had many discussions about this in the past on GCA.com and I think these last few posts are interesting from the viewpoint of a long held GCA perspective which basically says:

"A course that is designed or setup to be great/interesting for the best .0001% of players in the world, may not be so hot for everyone else"

I can't argue it wasn't a compelling finish with plenty of twists and turns with a leaderboard chock full of big names, but the same thing happened at Chambers Bay and it was poo-poo'd by nearly everyone.  If I had my proverbial 10 of 10 plays between those two, it would be an easy 10-0 for me.

P.S.  Full disclosure, I know the "play where the pros play" has allure to many, I get it.  But I can only think of two courses on the planet where that might interest me...ANGC and TOC.

[Tim Gavrich]

It's a lot easier to get the setup right on a course that's very well-suited for the task.


Torrey may not be architecturally enthralling, but it's clearly a fantastic test of elite-level golf.


The funny thing is that, even though it's not a "strategic" course in a lot of ways, it ends up really testing course management and presenting a lot of risk/reward at the elite level. These guys are really good, and they're also working with pretty solid analytics now. If you give them a "strategic" hole, they'll generally calculate the right way to play it pretty quickly. Holes like 10 at Riviera or 13/15 at Augusta aren't really all that compelling at the pro level anymore because these dudes know how to play them, which has reduced them to relatively simple tests of execution.


Somehow, a hole like 13 at Torrey that completely lacks nuance becomes genuinely compelling at the elite level because of the difficulty of execution it demands. Sure, the big boys all step to the tee hoping to hit a great drive and have a chance to reach in two... but then they hit the tee shot and all kinds of shit starts happening.

Amen. This absolutely nails it, Jason.


They may not fit the criteria of what we know/believe to be enjoyable GCA, but the talent and ego of the best players is very well matched by strenuous conditions like the USGA presents in its biggest event.

[V. Kmetz]

Holes like 10 at Riviera or 13/15 at Augusta aren't really all that compelling at the pro level anymore because these dudes know how to play them, which has reduced them to relatively simple tests of execution.

Somehow, a hole like 13 at Torrey that completely lacks nuance becomes genuinely compelling at the elite level because of the difficulty of execution it demands. Sure, the big boys all step to the tee hoping to hit a great drive and have a chance to reach in two... but then they hit the tee shot and all kinds of shit starts happening.

...yup, as others are saying...absolutely nails it... although my one visit to TP, even with more trees and a narrower corridor and a shorter tee...13 was a fun hole to play...comes in a perfect place in the back nine routing too, imo.


One stat I was REALLY surprised at... that #6 (played as card 4 of 519) played to a stroke average of 4.119...that's significantly lower than other USGA converted 5s... it's many years now, but I recall that hole being a scary 5 when I played.

[Mark Kiely]

One stat I was REALLY surprised at... that #6 (played as card 4 of 519) played to a stroke average of 4.119...that's significantly lower than other USGA converted 5s... it's many years now, but I recall that hole being a scary 5 when I played.

I believe this is because they were all able to cut the corner over that tree, making the hole play shorter than the stated length on the card.

[V. Kmetz]

One stat I was REALLY surprised at... that #6 (played as card 4 of 519) played to a stroke average of 4.119...that's significantly lower than other USGA converted 5s... it's many years now, but I recall that hole being a scary 5 when I played.

I believe this is because they were all able to cut the corner over that tree, making the hole play shorter than the stated length on the card.

That's got to be part of it...there's an example (I suppose) of where the pro's slightly diff teeing angle...further to the right and its carry proposition -- is actually an easier shot, than the further left, shorter Par 5 tee I played (I think) more than 25 years ago... the tee I played is remembered as a true slicer's fright, a test of accuracy/not blocking pushing or slicing rather than a test of carry. cutting any corner...

[Drew Maliniak]

Good points.


100% agree that I would love to see the pros back at Chambers Bay.


Do think Torrey with more "road hole" style features would solve a lot of the criticism.

[Kalen Braley]

VK,

From what i saw on Saturday and Sunday, they were using the brown tee at 530, which was just close enough for many to go over the tree on the right instead of around it from from the 564 yard back tee and effectively made the hole even shorter than 530.  BDC had a gap wedge approach on Sunday.

[Tim Leahy]

We've had many discussions about this in the past on GCA.com and I think these last few posts are interesting from the viewpoint of a long held GCA perspective which basically says:

"A course that is designed or setup to be great/interesting for the best .0001% of players in the world, may not be so hot for everyone else"

I can't argue it wasn't a compelling finish with plenty of twists and turns with a leaderboard chock full of big names, but the same thing happened at Chambers Bay and it was poo-poo'd by nearly everyone.  If I had my proverbial 10 of 10 plays between those two, it would be an easy 10-0 for me.

P.S.  Full disclosure, I know the "play where the pros play" has allure to many, I get it.  But I can only think of two courses on the planet where that might interest me...ANGC and TOC.

I played TPS almost every weekend for 2 years with a 10 hdcp from both the blue and white tees and never tired of the challenge or got bored in the slightest. Prior to the club championship and the

[Peter Pallotta]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

[Brad Lawrence]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

[Peter Pallotta]

Brad - that's the question I was thinking about when I posted about the near-unanimous praise from the players re: the course & set-up, and how some of them singled out JG's role. If memory serves, there were few complaints in this regard at either of the past two Opens, ie at Winged Foot and Pebble in 2019, which coincided with JG's arrival. In short, I'm wondering if this slightly kinder gentler US Open (ie no 'losing the course' eg Shinnecock) might be the new normal.

[Brad Lawrence]

Brad - that's the question I was thinking about when I posted about the near-unanimous praise from the players re: the course & set-up, and how some of them singled out JG's role. If memory serves, there were few complaints in this regard at either of the past two Opens, ie at Winged Foot and Pebble in 2019, which coincided with JG's arrival. In short, I'm wondering if this slightly kinder gentler US Open (ie no 'losing the course' eg Shinnecock) might be the new normal.

I really hope that’s not the new normal.   


Top shelf players are often the worst source of what is and isn’t good design and set up. Their praise doesn’t influence my opinion at all.  Many of them feel it is their birthright that the ball stops where it lands.  That all “good shots” are rewarded. That a course “right out in front of you” is definitely a good thing. 

[jeffwarne]

Brad - that's the question I was thinking about when I posted about the near-unanimous praise from the players re: the course & set-up, and how some of them singled out JG's role. If memory serves, there were few complaints in this regard at either of the past two Opens, ie at Winged Foot and Pebble in 2019, which coincided with JG's arrival. In short, I'm wondering if this slightly kinder gentler US Open (ie no 'losing the course' eg Shinnecock) might be the new normal.

The aesthetics of the bunkers certainly have colored many opinions of TP here.
One thing is certain, we don't get the dramatic finish we got this year at TP on the plinko, mottled greens we've seen in so many US Opens other than the last 3 years.
Say what you want about Torrey, their greens were firm , sloped and demanding, yet puttable, while previous events have produced random , odd, uneven rolls as they were so stressed.
Just saying mottled and plinkolike is an undesirable, yet highly effective  way to protect par.


I'd love to see the US Open at Pebble more often,or Bandon, or somewhere else of public access on the west coast.
So we have TP which ticks so many boxes except a few here on GCA.
On the muni side, t's hard for me to call Bethpage a better site with its(now perma) narrowed fairways and penal thick rough that renders many of its bunkers wide and irrelevant.To say nothing of its boring greens save 15.
And TP at least has the canyons now more than ever in play on 6-7 holes(one decided the event) as well as spectacular views,
with a prime time slot


Unless it's opposite swimming...

[Ira Fishman]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

Brad - that's the question I was thinking about when I posted about the near-unanimous praise from the players re: the course & set-up, and how some of them singled out JG's role. If memory serves, there were few complaints in this regard at either of the past two Opens, ie at Winged Foot and Pebble in 2019, which coincided with JG's arrival. In short, I'm wondering if this slightly kinder gentler US Open (ie no 'losing the course' eg Shinnecock) might be the new normal.

Say what you want about Torrey, their greens were firm , sloped and demanding, yet puttable, while previous events have produced random , odd, uneven rolls as they were so stressed.

It was a demanding but fair test. Mickelson who hasn’t been a big booster of the post Reese Jones Torrey Pines praised the setup and added “In the thirty years I have played the U.S. Open, this is the best I’ve seen. I thought the USGA did a remarkable job, and I’m really proud and happy that it’s here at Torrey.”

[Jason Thurman]

I’ve been playing golf for 35 years, I’ve competed at almost every level, and I was a club pro for a decade.

Top shelf players are often the worst source of what is and isn’t good design and set up.

 


It's funny. One of my takeaways as I watched this tournament was "Damn. The pros might actually have a lot of pretty good points when it comes to what makes for the best elite-level tests of golf."


Count me in agreement with the guys who liked seeing real grass on the greens and un-stupidly-narrowed fairways while still delivering a stout test.

[Brad Lawrence]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.  Also part of my statement was, the championship should be played on the nation’s best golf courses. Torrey Pines even isn’t among the very best courses in the state.  Torrey Pines is such a snoozer that for me, the U.S. Open hardly felt like a major.

[Rob Marshall]

"I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.  Also part of my statement was, the championship should be played on the nation’s best golf courses. Torrey Pines even isn’t among the very best courses in the state.  Torrey Pines is such a snoozer that for me, the U.S. Open hardly felt like a major."

The important thing was it felt like a major to Rahm, Louie and the other top players fighting like hell to win it. What anyone else felt is meaningless.

[Brad Lawrence]

"I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.  Also part of my statement was, the championship should be played on the nation’s best golf courses. Torrey Pines even isn’t among the very best courses in the state.  Torrey Pines is such a snoozer that for me, the U.S. Open hardly felt like a major."

The important thing was it felt like a major to Rahm, Louie and the other top players fighting like hell to win it. What anyone else felt is meaningless.

Obviously. I’m just one fan and I’m only speaking for myself. (though everyone I’ve spoken to agrees with me fully)  But my opinion is the only opinion that matters to me.  There’s nothing that could possibly happen during the tournament that could sway my opinion of that golf course and what the U.S. Open should look like.

[Rob Marshall]

"But my opinion is the only opinion that matters to me."

Glad you are so open minded.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/despite-moaning-and-complaining-torrey-pines-should-host-more-us-opens

[Brad Lawrence]

"But my opinion is the only opinion that matters to me."

Glad you are so open minded.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/despite-moaning-and-complaining-torrey-pines-should-host-more-us-opens

I think you are reading that statement the wrong way.  I don’t feel like my opinion is more important or more valuable than anyone else’s. I’m saying that my opinion is my opinion and it’s not going to change based on what anybody else says or believes.

[jeffwarne]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.

I find those sentences at odds with each other.
Shinny's had 2 recent Opens and the greens were plinko-both times. (I pin that squarely on the USGA as Shinny has wonderful greens)
Just not sure how you can say "nobody wants to see bumpy greens" than say you'll take what you saw at Shinny over what we saw at Torrey. Evidently, you want to see bumpy greens if you chose "what you saw at Shinny".


At TP, I saw the best leaderboard by far I've seen in a major until the two leaders separated themselves late.
I saw one of the best finishes I've ever seen in a major.
I saw great shots rewarded and those who continually bailed, eventually punished(see Bryson)
I saw many kids of players have success. Bubba, Bryson, Rahm, Koepka, Henley,Shauffele ,Morikawa
I saw firm, yet healthy turf.
Stunning views on TV.


I love Shinecock. It's one of my favorite courses in the world.
I detest what the USGA has done to it the last two visits, and frankly feel TP as presented was a far better test.(I hate the word test, but I hate plinko greens worse)
If those are my choices, i'll take TP.
I'd prefer to see the Shinny that's presented every summer, and an improved TP, but it seems those aren't real choices.

[Brad Lawrence]

And maybe most importantly, set-up wise, they made sure the greens were still alive and the grass wasn't dead at tournament's end. They understood precisely what TP is -- and isn't -- as a golf course and a championship/US Open test, and how it best 'functions'. That understanding hasn't always been evident at some past US Opens. I think that might be Jason Gore's influence.

If what we saw this week is the future of the U.S. Open, call me disappointed. I don’t want the U.S. Open to look like a PGA championship. I want to see our national championship played on the nation’s best courses set up to the extreme. Grass will grow back.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between playing on the best courses and stressing out the greens to ensure that they are difficult to putt because of mottled and burnt out surfaces. If the courses are top of the top, they should not need over the top preparations on the greens. TPS produced a final round of great players making runs and then fading (or worse) on greens that were not tricked up.


Ira

I don’t think there’s anyone among the players, fans, or governing body that wants to see bumpy greens.  What I want to see is an extremely firm course.  I’ll take what I saw at Shinnecock Hills over what we saw this week.

I find those sentences at odds with each other.
Shinny's had 2 recent Opens and the greens were plinko-both times. (I pin that squarely on the USGA as Shinny has wonderful greens)
Just not sure how you can say "nobody wants to see bumpy greens" than say you'll take what you saw at Shinny over what we saw at Torrey. Evidently, you want to see bumpy greens if you chose "what you saw at Shinny".


At TP, I saw the best leaderboard by far I've seen in a major until the two leaders separated themselves late.
I saw one of the best finishes I've ever seen in a major.
I saw great shots rewarded and those who continually bailed, eventually punished(see Bryson)
I saw many kids of players have success. Bubba, Bryson, Rahm, Koepka, Henley,Shauffele ,Morikawa
I saw firm, yet healthy turf.
Stunning views on TV.


I love Shinecock. It's one of my favorite courses in the world.
I detest what the USGA has done to it the last two visits, and frankly feel TP as presented was a far better test.(I hate the word test, but I hate plinko greens worse)
If those are my choices, i'll take TP.
I'd prefer to see the Shinny that's presented every summer, and an improved TP, but it seems those aren't real choices.

What I saw at Torrey was a PGA Championship - a major on a second tier course playing fairly ordinary conditions.   If that’s the future of the US Open, it’s open to be considered the third best major..... IMO.