Why I can't stand Florida golf?

[Mike Sweeney]

Doral, as Dick Wilson designed it, should also be considered.

Someday I should go back and play it. It was the first BIG course that I played in 1977 or so when I was in high school. I obviously did not know anything back then (We know Matt, not now either !) but it was a really cool place for me and I made par on #18 - driver, 5 wood, wedge, 1 putt. 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Agreed -- the Blue Monster (the Wilson one) was a gem -- back then.

[Keith Phillips]

Keith:

I salute you in having cherry-picked off the courses you named. I have played a number of them and concur they are quite good. However, you did focus much of your glowing accounts on the personal service dimension (e.g. caddies, clubhouse, practice facilities). Not to diminish those qualities but what does have to do with the architecture?

I also don't know your home area but if it happens to be in the northeast -- would you trade playing your top tier courses in your "neck of the woods" for the ones you mentioned?

Matt, like you I live in New Jersey...my home course (and first golf love) is Montclair Golf Club, and I am also a member at Bayonne...other local courses I know and respect include Plainfield, Mountain Ridge and Essex County...the Florida courses I referenced weren't cherry-picked but are the only ones I've played...if you include those six + (say) six others I have heard good things about but haven't played (Seminole, Pine Tree, Trump, Loblolly, Jupiter Hills x 2...) you really have pretty tremendous golf available, just in one small portion of the state

I have a difficult time comparing the Jersey classics with what I consider to be modern classics in Florida...EVERYTHING is different, from the topography to the turf to the (sometimes over-) abundance of water...nothing I have seen in Florida remotely resembles the massive elevation changes at Montclair, or the beautiful terrain at Plainfield...having said that I REALLY enjoyed the Florida courses I mentioned, but have played 5 of them only once...I am also a member at the Ritz and have played it ~15 times and like it a lot - Jack did a great job there, offering tremendous variety and great interest - in particular I find the bunkering and green complexes very interesting and challenging...while I can't compare the Ritz to (say) Bayonne, I can say that I really enjoy Florida golf and think you underestimate the number of very fine clubs..

[archie_struthers]

 


The purists would have loved us today  (nope we played five)     about 23 degrees when we pegged it at Greate  Bay this morning with wind swhippiong at arond 20-35 mph   pretty rough out there  bags blowing down bogey was par

Thinking of how nice it would have been to have been hitting it somewhere where the greens weren't frozen solid holes   ahhh Spirit Airlines here I come

Matt has a point about some Florida golf as hole after hole of water hazards gets a bit tiresome and is the norm at many Florida courses because it was the easiest way to build them

However Seminole ...Indian Creek.....Pine Tree ...are quite special ...just different from their Northeast brethren in general ...think Maidstone and not Winged Foot

[John_Conley]

John:

Be curious to know what Doak number you would give each of them and what your top ten are for the state?

You around the end of the month when the show starts ?

Bella Colina is a low 5 on the Doak, Juliette Falls is a high 5.  Golden Hills may be a 5, but it is a truly hidden gem.  Probably not a 6, but definitely worth playing.  Sugarloaf?  I'm guessing a 6.  It could be a 7...I'd like to see it more.

I am around.  Working, but around.

Top Ten in Florida?  I'm just rattling some names off without much thought.

John's Island West
Jupiter Hills
Calusa Pines
Pine Barrens at World Woods
Black Diamond Ranch (although it is a classic 5/13 golf course)
Old Memorial (great course on a pretty bad site)
North Palm Beach (okay, maybe Top 10 is a stretch, but I LOVE it)
Shark's Tooth
Dunes Golf Club (I have not seen it since renovations)
Ocean Hammock

I have not played Seminole and don't care for the TPC.  PGA Tour courses like Copperhead, Bay Hill, Disney's Magnolia, and Doral don't do it for me.  Lots of very good courses in the area between Tampa and Gainesville.

[Bruce Katona]

Archie: You tried to play earlier today?  Are you nuts?  Its didn't make it above 20 here north of the Raritan River with the refreshing breeze tpo cool things off a bit....downright cold.

[archie_struthers]

 

Bruce we didn't try to play yesterday  we did play    LOL  probably the coldest day  I've played when you factor inthe wind  ...we actually had eight  guys walk at Greate Bay yesterday  a five  (us) and a threesome that followed around 10:30   

It was really challenging to say the least   !    thats why any course in Florida looked pretty appealing to me last night

[Matt_Ward]

Keith:

Let me say straight up I have long been a fan of Montclair GC -- most especially the #2 + #4 nines which are often forgotten by many -- clearly the out of state folks don't even know much about the course or confuse it with Upper Montclairl CC.

One other thing -- you did focus a good bit of your initial comments on off-course matters -- the caddies, the type of clubhouses, etc, etc. and little was specific about the design elements.

Keith, I never said the courses you played or the others you mentioned are not good golf courses -- I did say that for the purposes of national acclaim, in my opinion, they are beneath the level of the ones you and I share here in NJ and throughout the NYC metro area. The terrain allows for greater hole diversity and FL is simply blessed with dead flat terrain for the overwhelming number of instances.

I don't doubt there are differences -- that's what one does when comparing / contrasting places and I've said this previously that the first thing among equals when assessing courses starts with the terrain, followed by the overall routing and the sheer diversity of the shots / holes you encounter. FL follows the same pattern -- no doubt some do it better than others but for national consideration from the ones I have played other areas of the country are now making major break throughs -- see Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Red Ledges, to name just a few of the more recent layouts.

There's little doubt one can enjoy oneself when going to Fl and it helps to play the type of courses you mentioned. You say I underestimate the golf there -- beg to disagree -- I just don't see FL golf being more than a temporary diversion to return to where the upper tier layouts are located and as I said previously other areas of the USA -- most notably the moutnain west are now coming forward with a range of courses that are utterly incredible.

[cary lichtenstein]

You guys are missing the point. This is Florida where you CAN play golf in the frigging winter. The rest doesn't matter!!!!!!!!!

[Jud_T]

How about in comparison to Arizona or Palm Springs?

[Bill_McBride]

How about in comparison to Arizona or Palm Springs?

Arizona and Palm Springs can both be frigid in January and February - peak season.  Florida is more likely to be decent even if the golf isn't stellar.

I agree with Cary, anyone who lives up to his buttocks in snow and can't play for five months shouldn't be quibbling about the quality of the golf in Florida!

(I suspect that's why Cary and Bette didn't retire in Chicago!)

[JC Jones]

What about those of us who live down here?  Can we complain about the quality of golf?

Also, I don't know about you, but it is freaking cold down here right now.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
You've got guys in the the northeast that question the quality of Winged Foot West and guys in the west who say Pebble Beach is undeserving of it's place in the rankings.
No reason someone from the south shouldn't be lamenting how crappy Seminole is. 

It was 7 degrees here yesterday, wind chill of minus 15, and snowing. I'll trade you.

[JC Jones]

Though I've not played it, I doubt I'll be lamenting a trip to Seminole anytime in my life.

Its not Seminole that is the problem, its 993 of the other 999 that is bothersome.

[Jud_T]

What do you guys think of Indian Creek Country Club-William Flynn Miami track? 

[jeffwarne]

How about in comparison to Arizona or Palm Springs?

Arizona and Palm Springs can both be frigid in January and February - peak season.  Florida is more likely to be decent even if the golf isn't stellar.

I agree with Cary, anyone who lives up to his buttocks in snow and can't play for five months shouldn't be quibbling about the quality of the golf in Florida!

(I suspect that's why Cary and Bette didn't retire in Chicago!)

I often hear players from the northeast bemoan the "slow" greens in Florida or the conditions of the courses in Florida..
There are courses up here near me nationally ranked (and receive top conditioning scores (9.5+) in GD's itemized ranking) whose greens are unputtable right up to mid-late May and then they aerify them again come labor day. They heal and then it's cold again---- 3 good months.
Even if they're perfect all three months (every day including Mondays), the best that would be is 2.5 on a 10 scale or 25% of three months as a 10.0
When I worked at Long Cove ,members from up north would comment to me on the "poor condition" of the (dormant) course (in January) and tell me how great their greens were in New Jersey, Mich., etc.---My question was always "What kind of condition are they right now?"

[Mike Sweeney]

You guys are missing the point. This is Florida where you CAN play golf in the frigging winter. The rest doesn't matter!!!!!!!!!

Cary,

We will check back with you in Hurricane season!!

We stayed home, and the highlite if you want to call it that, was at the height of the storm, 2 bedroom windows blew out. So we fought the 120mph winds, nailed 5 shelves to the inside of each window, no mean trip, cuz the wind was stronger than Bette and me combined, and so of sealed our house, except for the rain that continued to pour in.

So we were up all nite with towels, mops, etc, buckets trying in vain to stop the damage, but you can't stop the damage, when a hurricane wants your house, no different than when your wife wants it, it is a losing battle.

No there is no electricity, so I am at my son's house on his computer. No a/c, no phones, no nothings.

Lot's of trees down, but only 20% of the number from Francis. Francis got all the weaklings, Jeanne got the rest.

Lots of flooding.

Talking seriously with wife about moving, 

Frankly, we are real shoke up from this experience, like being in an auto accident, and you go into shock, and then it sort of leave you a little bit everyday.

My buddy gave me 3 sheets of plywood becasue every store is closed, another buddy cut the sheets of size, someone else gave me a ladder which was stolen right out of my driveway 20 minutes after he put it there, so I got another, a drill, bits, etc and 2 days later at least we have the blown out windows secured.

All the golf courses are closed, no gas, no restaurants, like a 3rd world country

[Bill_McBride]

What about those of us who live down here?  Can we complain about the quality of golf?

Also, I don't know about you, but it is freaking cold down here right now.

It's a tad nippy up here too!  I thought you'd enjoy that!  Still no windshield scraping..............

[Joel Zuckerman]

What do you guys think of Indian Creek Country Club-William Flynn Miami track? 

I played it almost a year ago--mid--January 2009.  I was expecting more than I saw.  it was good, not great, IMO, and I cannot remember a standout feature as I type, other than a par-3 hard by a canal.

The clubhouse buffet was extraordinary  (Ladies Day, as I recall) and the most memorable part of the visit was a guy we were drinking with in the locker room---older fellow, afflicted with serious Parkinsons, and the attendant shakes.  But when the waiter brought him a vodka-over-ice, filled to the very brim, he was as steady as a neurosurgeon as he was drinking.

[Carl Johnson]

Look, I don't play golf just for the sake of playing golf. I venture to locales that have the kind of golf that says you "must" go play it. Florida has very few of those types of places. ]

The reasons are simple ...

2). Over reliance on bermuda turf that overdoses the aerial game

Matt, is it the Bermuda grass, or is it the "soil," how tight the grass is cut, or how much water it gets, or some combination?  In my personal experience as a golfer, and that's all, the latter three factors seem to have more to do with how fast the course plays than the type of grass alone.  Focusing on the grass itself, what type of grass (that would be growable in Florida), if any, would make Florida courses better, in your opinion?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think that part of the problem lies within the "categorization" of golf clubs.

How can you compare Winged Foot type courses, to golf courses in gated communities ?

They serve a different master, thus, their architecture tends to be more user friendly, more visual, and yes, more flashy.

To conduct a fairer comparison I think you have to compare private clubs to private clubs, not private clubs to resorts or gated community golf courses.

There aren't that many private clubs not associated with residential communities.
There are very few private clubs in Southeast Florida compared to the Metro NY area for a number of reasons.

In addition, the terrain is dramatically different, as is the weather.

Last Wednesday, Pine Tree was putting in the 13 range.
Adios and other courses weren't far behind.

What were Winged Foot, Bethpage and Baltusrol putting at last Wednesday ?

Comparing course conditions on courses in the Northeast and Southeast is an exercise in futility, it's ridiculous.

Bermuda putts slow in the summer in Florida.
Northern courses aren't exactly speedy in the early spring, or when it gets hot and humid in the summer.
So, let's put the condition issue aside.

What dead flat course in the Northeast compares to Pine Tree and Boca Rio ?

A comparison between, NGLA, Shinnecock, Fishers Island and other courses with intersting terrain, to dead flat courses in Florida immediately puts the courses in South Florida at a disadvantage since they'll NEVER enjoy interesting topography.
But, that doesn't mean that they aren't architectural gems.

For those that think that Seminole isn't great, I submit that you haven't played it enough to make that judgement.

Golf migrated to Florida, it mostly followed the Northerners, the snow birds, and the products created generally reflected their tastes and preferences.

Interestingly enough, some of the more flashy and tasteless elements of Florida golf have remigrated back up north.
Foutains and waterfalls being just two of the more egregious features to follow the snow birds back to their home courses

[JC Jones]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great.  Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

[Matt_Ward]

Carl:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I don't have the answer although papspalum seems to be a good alternative so that a firmness can happen. Bent doesn't work in FL because to keep it alive it's overdosed with H20 -- the bermuda in the summer time becomes like a spongy carpet. So much of what calls itself golf in FL is blessed with mundane land and fairly redundant routings with H20 on one side and OB on the other to protect houses. There are exceptions -- but very few indeed when held against the total head count of golf courses in the state.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Only 1 person said Seminole wasn't great.  Most of us have no doubt in the world that it is great. 

Would you say that Seminole is more representative of "Florida Golf" than [insert any of the several clubs in Naples or Orlando]?

Which clubs in Naples or Orlando ?

Please don't list resort courses as you can't compare them to the "classics" Matt Ward uses in his argument, unless you want to include Arrowhead, Grossingers, The Concord, Seaview, Kutshners (sp?) and the like

[Mike Sweeney]

Carl:

 Bent doesn't work in FL because to keep it alive it's overdosed with H20 -- the bermuda in the summer time becomes like a spongy carpet. So much of what calls itself golf in FL is blessed with mundane land and fairly redundant routings with H20 on one side and OB on the other to protect houses. There are exceptions -- but very few indeed when held against the total head count of golf courses in the state.

Matt,

It is not Bermuda grass that you can't  stand or Florida architecture...it is the lack of elevation relative to sea level.  You love thin air and the proof is your 5.5 deg driver. Partner, I'm telling ya you would sooooo love Florida at 5000 ft.