[Lenny Polakoff]

Matt,

I think Florida golf has to be taken for what it is.  And although I agree with you on many points,  There is no question, Some GREAT courses in FLA that have very interesting layouts and routing, and are always in supurb playing conditions.  Seminole, Boca Rio, Pine Tree, High Ridge, Old Marsh, Loblolly, and Banyan to name a few.

I do find it intersting that the demand for an aerial game is one of the reasons you dislike Florida golf so much.  How do you feel about playing overseas where a demand for a ground game is often required??  

Isn't part of what makes golf so interesting is the need to change a playing style based on the course, condiditons, geography, and weather?

I enjoy my rounds at great courses in florida, just as I enjoy my rounds at great courses in the North East.  

[Steve Lang]

  Matt Ward can just stand down on Southern golf...

tomorrow it'll be just fine in FLA and eslewhere along the 30th parallel of the Gulf Coast & south to go out and play..

must every round seek out higher and higher levels of gca and its costs?  if there's half a dozen real nice holes at a course, or other redeeming features, can't that suffice?  isn;t that they type of course that grows the game?    

[Matt_Ward]

Lenny:

Thanks for your response.

Let me just say this again for the upteeeenth time ... the bulk of what calls itself golf in Florida is mainly forgettable. Believe me, I have "taken (it) for what it is."

If the weather in the Northeast didn't hit below freezing the whole nature of why one goes to the Sunshine State would not exist.

Sure, there are a few courses of note -- but frankly how many really are bonafide contenders for any top 100 list. Maybe you can make a case for 2-3 but not more than that given the level of competition that has come to the forefront in recent years in the more remote areas with the likes of Ballyneal and Rock Creek to name just two.

I dislike FL golf beyond the aerial game dimension alone. The land characteristics is virtually the same for all but the very, very few. And you get the predictable routing techniques -- H20 on one side to the max and with OB on the other side are some variance over and over again. It's way too often cookie-cutter design forced upon the land in a generally predictable "yawn" style design. You also get bermuda type grass which fosters point-to-point style golf.

In regards to your last question -- I love the overseas golf you mentioned. Thanks to the people on GCA and elsewhere I have found that many courses in England and Scotland deserve far more attention than all the hype one gets about places that exist in Florida.

Hey, if certain people "need to change" then by all means knock themselves out and enjoy FL golf to the max. Doak said it best in CG and I have found very, very few exceptions to that belief.

If you see an equivalence of fun for FL and Northeast golf -- more power to you. I see FL golf as something in my rear view mirror.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Beg your pardon -- I went to school in the south and have outlined previous thoughts on southern courses I really enjoy. Maybe the name of Pinehurst #2 and The Ocean Course might be familiar to you.

Steve, I don't begrudge anyone from their fun however they define it by whatever course they want to play it.

If you think FL golf cuts it for you -- why give a rats ass what I think ?

My comments are directed to those who want to really see designs that are compelling -- FL golf, for the vast preponderance of what calls itself golf -- is simple like a cheap China buffet restaurant -- fills you up with volume but lacks the depth / substance at a national caliber level.

To each his own ...      

[JC Jones]

Matt,

I agree with you, in fact, I was having this conversation with Mayhugh yesterday.  If you look at what a Doak 0 is, I think that AT LEAST 98% of Florida courses are Doak 0's.  AND I LIVE HERE.

The two best courses I've played in Florida, I've played in the last two weeks (Sugarloaf Mountain and West Palm Beach GC).  Incidentally, both of those courses are on sand.  I have no doubt that there are a handful of courses elsewhere in Florida that are good (all built on sand), the problem is, nobody has access to them.  So for the normal golfer, every course (save 4 or 5) can arguably be a Doak 0. 

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

The sad part is that a number of people who bark at me regarding my comments can't stand the fact that the investment they made is deemed to be a non-starter in terms of quality golf.

Look most people would not head to FL and deal with all the BS there if the winter weather didn't cooperate.

You're absolutely right -- the very few places worth a crap playing -- are extremely private but I stand by what I said previously -- the rise of quality stellar golf in other areas of the country has significantly eliminated these courses from top 100 status.

[JC Jones]

Matt,

I dont think that Seminole will be eliminated from top 100 status but I agree that there are few top 100 courses relative to the total number of courses down here.

In fact, I would argue that there is such a dearth of quality golf courses that the good are considered very good because of the surrounding competition.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, don't you think it's also a value for money and lack of access due to snowbirds problem???

There just aren't enough good courses that you can get on at affordable prices during the season - which you are about to experience unfortunately.

[JC Jones]

Bill,

That is another problem, I have to drive 2 hours to play a quality course for less that $100/round.  Now, I am playing a quality course (presumably) next week, The Hideout, but that is not a regular thing because I dont have the near 6 figure initiation fee to spend. 

Naples is also FLorida at its worst because there are next to no public courses despite there being dozens if not near 100 in the area.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The sad part is that a number of people who bark at me regarding my comments can't stand the fact that the investment they made is deemed to be a non-starter in terms of quality golf. -Matt Ward


Matt,
It's nice to see a constant in an ever changing world, your condescending attitude still remains.

Thhhhhaaaaannnnnnnk you though for gving up on those extended letters for emphasis though, it was getting sssooooooo borrrrring.

Happy New Year. 

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Seminole is the one clear example that traditionalists keep harping about but it's more the pedigree of who's there and the history behind the club that keep it in the news for inclusion. I respect the place and enjoyed it from the one time I played it -- but the level of golf that has come on board in recent years -- see the likes of Ballyneal and Rock Creek, to name just two, are in world beyond what the North Palm Beach course delivers in my mind.

Jim K:

Thanks for your predictable retort -- when people like me or others see things very differently -- it's so e-z and lazy to throw the net of condescension around such folks. It's getting really tired with that routine. In regards to exxxxxxxtended elements ...

Haaaaaapppppppy New Yearrrrrrrrrrr sirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!

Jim, FL golf is nothing more than a desire to fill time between the real deal offered by others. Plenty of first rate layouts have emerged in the last 10-15 years to push out the FL layouts that were previously listed. That trend will likely continue as more and more people see the light. Sorry Jim, you may want to remove your sunglasses to see it firsthand.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lighten up Matt, it's a new year. 

[JC Jones]

Matt,

If I understand you correctly, Ballyneal and Rock Creek are better than Seminole?  I've not played any but that is quite a surprise to me.

[Matt_Ward]

JC:

Ballyneal and Rock Creek are THAT good ... remoteness plays against them but that will change as more people play both of them.

I see both of them as better than Pacific Dunes -- not by a helluva lot but better. You can draw your own conclusions -- it's not that Seminole is anything less than a fine layout -- but the bar for competiiton has indeed risen and a number of the more recent layouts that have opened in ther last 10-15 years are making their presence felt now.


Jim K:

I'm fine -- you're the dude who lobbed the condescending grenade at my feet. Happy New Year to you !

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
Your skin is pretty thin for  someone who lives in NJ.

Next time I guess I'll have to add an emoticon or two so you don't have to stand on a box to see what's going on. 

[Mac Plumart]

Matt...

Question;

You rate Rock Creek and Ballyneal higher than Seminole.  You rate Stone Eagle in your Top 25, but not Pebble...I think that is right?

Anyway, my observation/question is this...

Would you say that there is something about the design style of Tom Doak that attracts you?  Could this be a bias that, perhaps, not everyone shares?

Could this be a reason why rating entities use multiple raters to determine their lists?

I think you are (or at least were) a rater...Golf Digest if I am remembering correctly, so you should have some insight into this.

Now understand this is not a dig at all.  I really enjoy hearing people's opinions on golf and golf courses and I have done some pretty extensive analysis on the rating entities...and I believe I understand their processes and biases.  And, indeed, I think understanding these things can help a golfer use these lists more effectively.  

And if you have a bias for Doak courses and someone else does as well...maybe they should pay attention to your lsits and thoughts as they may be similiar to theirs.

Does that make sense?

[cary lichtenstein]

So what, Florida weather beats the shit out of Colo, Nebraska and Montana 8 months out of the years. Fl golf is great here for those 8 months. From June thru Sept it stinks, hot, humid and awful.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim K:

I don't have rabbits ears Jim -- just don't appreciate the same drivel of when people take a different position then it's labeled with the same tired and predictable "condescending" tagline. Try to come up with some really new material -- you're better than that. Happy New Year too !

Mac:

I had PB in my top 25 -- not Stone Eagle but Ballyneal and Rock Creek were very highly placed.

The Doak style takes the qualities of classic design and has fast tracked it to have a 2010 connection to the clubs and balls being used today. I don't see my selection of the three Doak courses as a bias -- but as a clear testament to the man's skills. Keep in mind, the courses in question I selected have stellar land sites and Doak added to that equation with a first rate routing that eschews even a hint of predictability.

Mac, multiple raters do not mean much to me. All that does is add more people to the process and frankly few of them can provide a personalized cross comparison analysis because only certain people have played one while others have played different ones. The numbers then are cruched together to give you some "consensus" outcome which often is weighed down by deficiencies I have previously mentioned plus others -- such as regional bias that often times is thrown into the picture.

I used to be a Digest rater for 17 years.

Mac, I don't give high marks to anyone because of who the architect is. That doesn't mean squat to me. What is clear is that there are some very talented people who are doing some outstanding work and frankly many of the previous classic courses have simply been surpassed by what a number of these more recent courses are providing. Ballyneal and Rock Creek have superb terrain, stellar routings and force the player to play the widest array of fascinating and fun shots you can imagine. The same can be said for places like The Kingsley Club and Black Mesa and Red Ledges.

I have had the advantage in traveling a good bit more than the average poster on this site -- with that advantage it has given me a front row seat to see what is happening in the field of golf design today. Again, it's just my opinion but I can assure you I don't have a bias -- but a clear belief in what I see as being a necessity when one discusses the absolute best in golf course architecture. Hope the info I have provided helps you.

[Mac Plumart]

Yes Matt...it helps out a lot.

I guess I may have worded things wrong, I didn't necessarily mean you were biased by Tom Doak's name being on a course rather you like his type of work.  You described it as..."The Doak style takes the qualities of classic design and has fast tracked it to have a 2010 connection to the clubs and balls being used today."   Which I think is an excellent description.  Although I will have to take your word for it...as I have yet to play a Doak.

With that in mind, I guess what I am driving at is the following...

If someone is a fan of the Golden Age/Classic Design, but aren't fully satisfied with the older courses due to technology (or whatever) then they might take a look at your favorites...Rock Creek for example...for courses that might be to their liking.  Given that the style takes the qualities of classic design and has fast tracked it to have a 2010 connection to the clubs and balls being used today.

That is what I am getting at.  Same can be said for someone who prefers Fazio/Resort style, Ross' distinctive style etc. 

This to me is the advantage of using a singular rater rather than a collective group.  Find a singular rater whom you agree with...and play their favorites as they probably will be to your liking.

Sorry for the thread jack.

Thanks...later!

[Tony Weiler]

Matt, right now it's -9 fahrenheit, we have 2 feet of snow, and I'm this close to booking World Woods in Feb.  Really could be a dog track, and I'd be happy to go.    In the CG, Tom D. puts Pine Barrens as an 8, and obviously for him, that says a lot.  I know that was 13 years ago, but would his scale change today?  The CG is a bit confusing, IMHO, with respect to Fla.  Obviously, it's "flatness" does not impress Tom D., in fact he says, "Fla., has 1,000 courses, I'll take Seminole, you can take the rest."  He is not impressed with the state but he then goes on to give Pine Barrens an 8.  In the CG, that is very high praise.  In his "Best Courses you can Play" he only has one 10, No. 2, two 9's, Pebble Beach and Casa, and Pine Barrens is one of 5 8's.  High praise, indeed.  Anyway, has TD ever explaiined that?

If we do go, I'll be excited to play PB and probably the Oaks course, as well.  I think we'll probably mix in Dunes at Seville.  In any event, with the wether we have right now, I think Fla. golf with be awesome.  TW

[JC Jones]

Matt, right now it's -9 fahrenheit, we have 2 feet of snow, and I'm this close to booking World Woods in Feb.  Really could be a dog track, and I'd be happy to go.     In the CG, Tom D. puts Pine Barrens as an 8, and obviously for him, that says a lot.  I know that was 13 years ago, but would his scale change today?  The CG is a bit confusing, IMHO, with respect to Fla.  Obviously, it's "flatness" does not impress Tom D., in fact he says, "Fla., has 1,000 courses, I'll take Seminole, you can take the rest."  He is not impressed with the state but he then goes on to give Pine Barrens an 8.  In the CG, that is very high praise.  In his "Best Courses you can Play" he only has one 10, No. 2, two 9's, Pebble Beach and Casa, and Pine Barrens is one of 5 8's.  High praise, indeed.  Anyway, has TD ever explaiined that?

If we do go, I'll be excited to play PB and probably the Oaks course, as well.  I think we'll probably mix in Dunes at Seville.  In any event, with the wether we have right now, I think Fla. golf with be awesome.  TW

The weather doesnt make the architecture better.  Trust me.

[Wade Whitehead]

But Pine Barrens really is a great golf course.

Rolling Oaks and The Dunes are good, too.

Still, I'd trade them (and the other 997) for Seminole.

WW

[Steve Lang]

  Matt,

a little irritable on this FLA subject man..  why? especially if your opinion hasn't changed in 6 years...  do you have to travel there and bemoan the static nature of golf things you have to experience or discuss?

I haven't played there in over 20 years, but certainly there's something of worth over there.. I expect transplant JC Jones to find it as he goes exploring, but would bet he can't wait to get back to Mich and play Belvedere no matter what he finds.

it always seems odd when blanket statements are made trashing a state's golf or other offerings..  eh?

i wish i could have seen as many course as you have in your travels, so I have to respect and take your word for comparing/ranking things, but I don't need the attitude sometimes offered..

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

That is another problem, I have to drive 2 hours to play a quality course for less that $100/round.  Now, I am playing a quality course (presumably) next week, The Hideout, but that is not a regular thing because I dont have the near 6 figure initiation fee to spend. 

Naples is also FLorida at its worst because there are next to no public courses despite there being dozens if not near 100 in the area.

Come on up to Pensacola for a weekend, although it's a 9 hr drive and I think our guest fee is $95 these days.   

[Matt_Ward]

Mac:

I can certainly appreciate a full range of architectural styles from the classic types favored by folks like Hanse, DeVries and Doak to styles that are bit more daring and unconventional -- see Dennis Rider's contirbution at Wolf CReek in NV to name one quick example.

Mac, this thread is about FL golf -- which is predominantly about selling houses with a golf course -- not necessarily one of distinction but one with 18 holes that can move real estate. No doubt in a place with over 1,000 golf courses there are a few worthy of one's time and attention -- but they are merely the best of FL golf -- and few would really crack into my personal top 100 for the USA. The bar for competition has risen dramatically within the last 10-15 years and should you ever have the opportunity / good fortune to play a Ballyneal or Rock Creek or Kingsley Club or Black Mesa I believe you would quickly see what it is I am saying with such a firsthand experience.

I don't know about the Fazio / Ross dynamic you speak about. Candidly, TF has far fewer layouts that would make my elite listing but there are a few that are quite solid ... Glenwild, Karsten Creek, Galloway National, Dallas National, Victoria National, to name just a few.

Mac, let me point out that I am not averse to someone having their own thoughts on what they believe is top golf design. I just don't see the benefit in the group think approach -- it's a watered down assembling based on nothing more than numbers being crunched hard together.

I'd much rather see what a specific person has in their own respective listing- easier for me to appreciate and learn frm.

Hope this info helps.

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