Why I can't stand Florida golf?

[frank_D]

Dear Mr Ward

My condolences as a Giants / Cub / Yankee fan but just because our FLORIDA MARLINS won the world series you don't have to go after the Florida golf courses

I just don't see that you have any more pursuasive argument than others who may be more knowledgeable and do not agree with you - and if its just your opinion - well who cares - or do you just want moral support because you don't really have a good reason to be disgruntled

Okay so you don't like Florida courses and may know something about golf course design and MUST periodically work in Florida - so what - so must others and as many will disagree with you as agree with you - however even if you can pursuade everyone else to your view - what real difference will it make anyhow ? so flatliners conformed when the world proved to be round - so what ? does that mean ALL flatliners were stupid ? You yourself have never been wrong ? As a kid you actually LIKED tuna fish the first time you ate it ?

A recent Calgary (Canada) newspaper "by golfers and for golfers" had an article that extolled the virtues of five Florida courses you have relegated as unfit - are these distinguished authors in aggregate or individually ALL less knowledgeable or enlightened than you OR simply less bitchy

Now if you ever want to be elected president of the US - well - you better let Florida count the final votes

As a suggestion i would table this discussion until july/august - then your popularity would have a better chance to rise as the FLORIDA humidity and heat indexs rise as well - to argue this point now makes you look more foolish than wise

[John_Conley]

Frank D is just as funny as Derek was!  Great post.  

Anyway, Matt, offering up two or three courses as "proof" of the superiority of Washington golf versus Florida is laughable.  You won't let anyone else point to the best of Florida because there are 1100 courses.  Please define "a small handful" - and let me know are these handfuls growing at all the more you think about it.  To me, Camp Creek, Shark's Tooth, and Burnt Pine is approaching a small handful and I've got 99% of the state left to cover.

I have played Bardmoor and Harbour Point in Washington.  Bardmoor is very similar to Oak Ridge and that course is about #15 in the Twin Cities for private clubs.  Harbour Point is Harbour Awful, yet it won some accolade from Golf Digest when it opened.  And these are supposed to be some of the better (not the two best, but certainly top or second decile) courses in Washington.  It is widely considered that the Pacific Northwest is lacking in great golf when compared to the Northeast; perhaps Tom Doak's book would concur.  (As John restates the obvious.)

Best-to-best Florida stands up to just about anywhere - aside from the aforementioned Northeast where access is difficult.  Average-to-average Florida bests any state you want to mention with the possible exception of Hawaii where they only have 80 or so courses.  You want to compare Florida average to Washington's best and it is all because you aren't able to - on Day 4 or whatever it is of this mess - admit that you were too harsh in your assessment and unfair in extrapolating a bad experience and making a broad-brush statement about an entire state.  And a big one at that.  (I believe Florida is 4th most populous?)

Bottom line is that I love playing golf a hell of a lot more than you do and am not as picky when it comes to where I play.  Make your own decile list for New Jersey and you'll realize that at least half of your courses aren't worthy of having you as a player.  No different than Florida.  (Let me remind you that you don't like the Fiddler's Elbow and that has to at worst make your state's 3rd decile.  How bad are the 70% or so that you'd rank below it?)

[SteveTL]

Matt,

I HAVE been back to Washington - I was there as recently as September...  And I have played probably near every good golf course in the state.  You mentioned two courses - both worthy of note - and both of which I have played...  Desert Canyon is magnificent, more for the site than the golf course (although it's quite good), and Indian Canyon is wonderful (albeit very tired from much municipal play & maintenance) - it's a throwback golf course certainly, but is not any more remarkable than a couple hundred golf courses in Florida...  

Many of the best golf courses in the northwest are new additions (within the past 20 years), just as many of them are in Florida.  Only a handful (truly a handful) are noteworthy, many of the best reside in Oregon.

You have your mind obviously made up - unfortunately it's based upon the "International Drive" exposure to Florida (ok - your exposure is probably a bit more than that, but not broad enough to give you a fair perspective).    

[John_Conley]

Steve, worse than an I-Drive perspective, he's talking mostly about golf in SE and SW Florida near the swampy Everglades.

I-Drive, by the way, has three new courses nearby.  GrandE Pines is the name of the reopening International, GrandE Lakes is at the Ritz-Carlton, and Shingle Creek is tied to Harris Rosen's hotels.  The Lakes is better than I expected and I will let you know about the other two when they open.

[SteveTL]

I didn't know there was a worse perspective than I-Drive!

[LKoonce]

Between this and the recent "Why Myrtle Beach Ruined My Life" thread, I've about had it with this form of nationalistic fervor.  Except for bragging rights, do state boundaries matter at all with respect to where a good golf course is located?  Okay, some types of soil and some climates and some topographies are better than others, and therefore some states with more localities that have conditions that fall into these categories are likely to have greater odds of having more top-notch designs, purely on a mathematical basis (ie, assuming that the courses in each state are created by a collection of designers that fall into a standard bell-curve, talent-wise and budget-restrictions-wise etc.).  That last assumption, of course, can be turned on its ear easily, for example where there is a high demand simply for more holes regardless of the availability of good sites, such as tourist meccas like MB much of coastal FL.

The point is, you can just put a pin on the map and draw a circle around it of so many miles radius and have the same fight -- again, it's just for bragging rights, or perhaps the point is just to pick an area where, if traveling, you can hit the most great courses in the shortest amount of time?  (Now that's a thread I'd follow closely, if it hasn't already been done...)

Of course, I'm from NC, and that state is so blessed with good fortune that this debate really doesn't seem so relevant...

[Matt_Ward]

SteveTL:

Fair perspective? Call my travel agent and let me know what counts in your mind as "fair perspective." You don't my travel schedule as well as I do. I've played more than just the certain elite courses that people readily identify with Florida. I don't want to beat my chest but let's just say I get around to see what's being touted by the people I respect in the industry.

When you say my listing of Washington is "laughable" please help me stop rolling on the floor with your defense of dullsville -- oops I'm sorry -- Florida. You've got "great" terrain and sorry ass turf conditions. It's the epitome of the aerial game.

Steve -- I'll concede that Washington doesn't have the volume of mediocre courses to match Florida but the topography is light years beyond Florida and the development of golf is still taking place. I also failed to mention the course that now serves as the host for the Univ. of Washington golf team (please forgive my senior moment). Even as beat-up as Indian Canyon is the design and routing of holes is still worth one's time. I think very highly of Desert Canyon and I believe Jack Frei, the designer there, also did McCormick Woods which is a fine public course closer to Seattle. Let me also mention Kayak Point and then you have the golf that's just on the other side of the border with Vancouver. I also think Jack Nicklaus did a fine job with the TPC at Snoqualmie (sp?).

I'm not the biggest fan of Sahalee because of the tree constriction but the public side of the ledger in Washington State is certainly making some nice improvement. I'll take it in a New York minute. If you're familiar with the state you know that the ball does indeed bounce a good bit when you get east of the Cascades. Try doing that in the mush of the summer months when that wonderful thatch called bermuda is blooming.

Steve -- when you say only a handful exist in WA -- help me out on the V-A-S-T number of exciting and "drop everything I must go now" layouts that are in Florida. Please send me that complete listing -- it should not take too long to type since the amount of courses that are "to die for" is really very small.

I'll say this again how bout putting some Doak numbers next to all those courses that you believe are 6 or above?

Here's my top ten in FL ...

1). Seminole / North Palm Beach
2). TPC / Stadium / Ponte Vedra
3). Black Diamonmd (Quarry) / Lecanto
4). World Woods (Pine Barrens) / Brooksville
5). Innisbrook (Copperhead) / Tarpon Springs
6). Old Memorial / Tampa
7). Ocean Hammock / Palm Coast
. The Medalist / Hobe Sound
9). Jupiter Hills (Hills) / Tequesta
10). Southern Dunes / Haines City

Have not played but heard a number of good things ...

El Diablo
Fiddlesticks
John's Island

Most overrated "zzzzzz" (have played them) ...

Lake Nona
Bay Hill
Doral / Blue
Old Marsh -- nothing like a little H20 and forced carries to deal with on nearly all of the holes?
*If I had more time I'd add quite a few more.

P.S. I love it when you Florida defenders mention "new" courses coming on line. Are they any better than the "fast food" stuff one normally finds or are they really worth a plane ticket ride to play them?

[SteveTL]

Matt,

Responding to your points...  

I don't mean to contest your impressive travel portfolio - and have no desire to validate it with your travel agent.  My point is that you need to add a few more golf courses in a few other locations to your travels next time you are here... Thats all...

Granted that most modern courses - not just in Florida - are designed to accept the aerial game.  Sure bermuda grass isn't the ideal "fast and firm" surface - but with proper drainage it can play very well...  All southern states from Arizona east suffer from a climate which limits turfgrass choices - the turf issue isn't strictly a Florida problem...  For those clubs which aren't hung up on the color green, dormant bermuda DOES play firm and fast many months of the year...  Those are the same months where the rest of the northern states are throwing snowballs or are playing in "plug a drive" conditions...  See Timuquana in Jacksonville for a good example...

That would be Washington National that you were referring to...  John Fought did a nice job - a good course but a little contrived IMO and particulary distasteful to me (a WSU Cougar alum).  Have you played Echo Falls - in Woodinville?  Also by Jack Frei - and god awful.  What about Bear Creek - also in Woodinville (complete with bulkheads, double-greens, contrived 3-tiered green - and houses alarmingly close to the golf course).  Most of Jack Frei's work is not exemplary.

McCormick Woods is pretty good - have you played it..?  I have never thought of attempting a bump & run shot there - nor have I considered it fast & firm...  The 90 degree lay-up dogleg 15th is a particularly weak hole...

I love Sahalee - and don't begrudge its trees...  I played there a great deal 20 years ago playing Jr. golf.  In fact, Kayak (and I really enjoy Kayak) is far less walkable and has more tree problems (not to mention a super-awkward 18th hole).  

East of the Cascades there are a few fine golf courses, I grant you that...  But would any of them crack your top 10 in Florida???  Maybe Desert Canyon (and I love Desert Canyon), but mostly for the views...  Ind  The best I've played in the entire state IMO are TPC Snoqualmie, Seattle GC (before it was messed around with), Sahalee, Aldarra and Desert Canyon...

I'm not a Florida defender - I'm just trying to find a way to help you "stand Florida golf" by pointing you a different direction.  Consider Camp Creek and Sharks Tooth in the Panhandle...  Consider El Diablo, Lake Jovita, and Dunes at Seville in central Florida...  Consider Timuquana, Hammock Dunes, and Pablo Creek in northeast Florida.  All but Timuquana have been built in the past few years...  I haven't had the priviledge of playing Mountain Lake - or many other wonderful places - but I know many others have been built in recent years...

And - I agree with ALL of your overrated "snoozers".  I could add dozens to that list.

 

[Matt_Ward]

SteveTL:

Thanks for your detailed reply.

A few points ...

Bermuda in Florida r-a-r-e-l-y dries to the degree that would be helpful in getting the ball to run out. I really feel sorry for the senior, women and average player who doesn't hit the ball far in the air. The game is reduced to a point-to-point repetition that has to be tiring.

I do agree with you regarding the issue of dormant grass, but I don't modify my comments / analysis on Florida golf based on what people "should do." I have to assess based on "what is." The issue with Florida is also complicated by the lack of consistent preparation regarding bermuda greens. I played at the PGA Reserve and it was simply a guess-a-thon of immense proportions to figure out what the ball would do. Reading grain is alot like reading tarrot cards!

Steve -- I appreciate your listing but common let's be a bit more forthcoming -- the names of many of these courses I have heard from others I know in the state and to man they have said many of them are decent layouts but not worthy of a "special trip" (see Doak's ratings guide -- particularly where he starts with level 6 courses). I mean how many courses in Florida can say they are at the "6" level?

Let's also talk about your point on courses from Washington and whether they would crack Florida's top ten. I believe Desert Canyon can certainly do it. I personally believe that no more than 4-5 Florida courses would even make my personal top 100. When you compare that number to the 1,100+ courses in the state NOW that tells me something. It may not tell you anything. I used Washington State as an example of a state that is just beginning to come forward with a number of solid courses -- to be candid -- I don't see any of them being worth a special trip to see but the expectation I have for Washington is nothing like all pomp and circumstances hype you hear about from Florida.

To be honest -- I did like McCormick Woods but you're point about the course having plenty of elbow type holes is a good one. The layout was quite dry when I played there about ten years ago. I don't see enough of Jack Frei's work to comment but I have always enjoyed Desert Canyon -- I've also heard on the grapevine there was to be a second 18 but thus far nothing has happened. I wonder if you know anything?

[Doug Sobieski]

Matt:

I suppose by your logic that (to paraphrase a popular notion) a team of monkeys on bulldozers should eventually be able to recreate the works of Donald Ross if given to the end of time to do their job? I'd put a smiley here if I could.

I suppose it's surprising to you as well that the Myrtle Beach area doesn't have more courses worthy of any Top 100 consideration, given the inordinate number of courses they have.

Some might think that for a state to have 4-5 courses in your top 100, that's a pretty good representation (5%). For comparison, North Carolina has three courses in the GD list. If NC built 500 courses in the next 10 years, should it be assumed that given their topography, climate, soil conditions, that they should have 10-15 on the list? Which state should then get the short end of that stick?

The modern courses in Florida do a VERY GOOD job of appealing to the intended audience (largely vacationers and retirees). Trying to add features to a product that doesn't increase its value to the customer doesn't make much business sense.

Regards,

Sobe

[SL_Solow]

I have been reading this thread with interest.  The problem with this discussion is one that is common to many of our threads; we are talking past each other.  I don't think Matt ever suggested that the "typical" Florida course does not appeal to the intended consumer.  He simply stated that he  doesn't like what they like and suggests that appealing to the least common denominator does not make for great (or even very good) architecture.  Its really quite difficult to argue with that position.  He couples that point with observations about typically flat terrain, echoing Tom Doak, overwatering etc. and indicates that, but for a few exceptions, Florida golf is not his cup of tea.  Those disagreeing either have different tastes in architecture or value the entire winter golf experience more than Matt.  For my money, I have found a few courses that I enjoy and the chance to enjoy the game in the winter overcomes any disappointment I may have if the architecture is less than I would prefer.  But candidly, all the points have been made more than once and it doesn't appear that anyone is going to change their mind.

[Matt_Ward]

SLSolow:

Amen ...

Doug S:

I hear what you say but consider this -- what is the threshold for customer satifsaction in Florida or even Myrtle Beach for that matter? Simple. Just give'm more and more golf. It's a simple forumla -- it's called buffet golf.

The q-u-a-l-i-t-y threshold loses meaning because most of the people playing don't really give a hoot about the architectue. They are as happy as clams to be in the warmair and having a grand time with their friends riding on carts and knocking back a few brewski's. Nothing wrong with that if that's your bag and your passion for golf is more about the company you keep than the quality of the layout you play.

Doug -- one last point -- some states just don't have the land / turf types for quality golf. Florida fits the bill IMHO. I've been there way too many times and as Solow mentioned in his thread -- people are there to keep the golf muscles
loose -- the quality golf architecture is truly few and far in between. When I said 4-5 courses might make my personal top 100 that's a truly sad reflection on the fact that over 1,100 courses exist there. There is no tried and true formula that says if you had more courses you will then likely have some outstanding courses worthy of national acclaim.

P.S. The business I'm is assessing quality golf architecure / courses. You're last line speaks volumes about what the grand purpose of Florida truly is.

P.S. Plus:

Pat Mucci asked me awhile back on this thread in comparing apples v apples in the private clubs category between FL and NJ. In my mind it's not even close. NJ is truly blessed with a wealth of grand private clubs and if one were to take the top 50 from each state the differencs would be just as strong at the top of the listing as it would be at the #50 slot IMHO.

[ChasLawler]

Matt,

At the risk of backing over the dead horse, I think the only thing your opponents on this thread were trying to say is that Florida is not devoid of architectural interest.

Your personal Top-10 speaks volumes for that argument. While it may not compare to PA, NY or NJ, that's not a bad list. Good golf can be found in Florida, you just have to know where and where not to go. The fact that there may happen to be 1000+ goat tracks in the sunshine state shouldn't take away from the quality of its top courses.

Hypothetically: If in the next 10 years, 700 unbelievably horrendous golf courses were constructed in PA, would that in any way take away from the architectural interest of the state's better courses?......and would you be less inclined to advise architectural enthusiasts to sample the golf in that state?

No one's arguing that most of the topography in Florida is not ideal for golf, or that the vast majority of courses inn Florida are 100% fast food - only that a few architects have managed to overcome the shortcomings, and for you to make a blanket statement calling all of Florida "dullsville" is absurd. Sure you qualify that with s-o-m-e exceptions, but the message it seems you're trying to promote is that Florida isn't even worth taking a look at. Architectural guru or not, I think that's false.

and ps:
what is it exactly you do for a living? From what I can gather, it seems all you do is play golf all over the country and then spout about it on this forum. Seeing as how the Jersey Golfer can't have that expansive of a reader base, I find it hard to believe you do all that on the company dime. Must be nice.

[Doug Sobieski]

Matt:

You said:

"First, I don't doubt that Florida has s-o-m-e courses of high quality. I mentioned them previously. Unfortunately, I can count with my two hands the number of courses that really leap off the page and make me want to book a flight and play them.

Second, the bulk of the courses (the state leads the nation with over 1,100 courses) is simply piss poor stuff. End of story."

I guess a point is that this can be said of ANY state. Sure, the NE has a higher concentration of 6 through 10's. Personally, New York (or Ohio, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Michigan) has only 10 or so courses that leap off the page and make me want to book a flight there tomorrow. In Florida, I too find it difficult to find someplace worth a special trip. But I don't expect more because the primary intention of course owners in Florida isn't to "wow" anybody with exceptional architecture (and it's very difficult to do so with such a poor choice of exceptional land).

If there were only 250 courses in Florida, would your assertion be different? If the answer is yes, is the purpose of this thread focusing too much on numbers which are meaningless when you consider WHY so many courses have been built. 4-5 courses worthy of Top 100 consideration is a good sampling in most states. Some states have more, some have less. It seems that Florida is penalized in your argument because of sheer numbers.

Doug

[SteveTL]

Ok Matt, truce!

I'm done with this thread - ready to move on...  I hope when you next travel to Florida that you have the opportunity to play a couple of the courses that have been mentioned during this discussion.  You might not care for them, but I would be interested in your opinion of them...

I've heard the same about Desert Canyon - but don't know of their expansion plans..?  Not that it matters - but Desert Canyon was something like #8 in GD's rankings in Washington.  I think it's a couple better, but not necesarily top 5 (the Semi-ah-moo courses are a bit too highly rated IMO).  

All the best,

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

R. Junah:

Please define for me the term "architectural interest" and let me know what courses (specifically) meet that threshold. Yes, for the most part Florida is BIG TIME DULLSVILLE. If you don't like my opinion so be it. I've been there countless times and for the most part you get those elaborate designs -- you know the ones with houses / OB on one side and H20 on the other. How very creative? Oh -- pardon me -- they flip it around every few holes to max out the "excitement" meter.

I can't speak to your threshold of "architectural interest" but I know mine and given where I have played. Florida is sadly very, very thin on courses that one would jump on a plane to play. If you think otherwise you need to see more golf before bashing my opinion.

Mr. Junah: I don't give brownie points to ANY state because it has "X" number of courses within it's border. I judge based on what is there -- thus far -- the cumulative record in Florida is piss poor stuff -- again with the few exceptions noted.

Mr. Junah: I write for a number of other magazines (Northeast and in the USA) -- many of which specialize in the travel and leisure category. I also write on other topics besides golf. Let me also mention this: I play more courses than most because of the availability of my schedule and because it's something I must do in order to stay current when writing. Believe me -- if you think making deadlines is fun stuff please let me know and I'll point in you in the direction of a few bloodhound publishers that I work with.

Let me also say that my top ten listing for Florida does contain quality courses -- no doubt. There are also other courses listed by a few others -- John C and SteveTL that seem to be worthy of a look because I respect there knowledge of those courses that have come onto the scene very recently. But, neither of them, I'LL REPEAT IT AGAIN, neither of them disagrees with my central premise -- the bar for "great" golf in Florida is very low. When compared to NJ, NY and PA I don't believe more than 3 would have an outside shot at cracking into the top 15 for those respective states.

What makes me chuckle with all the defenders of The Sunshine State (yourself included) is this penchant for confusing good golf versus high octane quality golf. I know what the difference between the two is. Do you?

Doug S:

Please don't rehash for me the same stuff I've heard countless of times from others. I know full well the "golf agenda" for Florida -- it's buffet style golf. Look, I don't doubt that for a good number of people that's what they want -- these are the same people who think Home Depot is the
u-l-t-i-m-a-t-e store for home furnishings.  

Doug -- you need to see the level of course quality taking place in the USA. If you took Florida's batting average of 1,100 courses and use my 4-5 listing for possible top 100 status and then compare that to other key states you'd find the "batting average" for Florida is really low. How do I base this? For one thing I travel quite frequently. I'm not saying that each of the new courses in different states (especially the midwest and mountain time area) is a miniature version of PV or CP, but it's clearly beyond the predictable and tired Florida designs that routinely dot the landscape. How? Three chief reasons:

1). Better land
2). Better turf conditions
3). Better routings and increased dimensions for shot values

Florida is held back for clear reasons (see above). It does produce good golf, but it's merely adequate / poor in so many other instances. If Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass are content with such layouts more power to them -- they just won't have me standing either in front or behind them. That's good new to them and even better for me.

[Doug Sobieski]

Matt:

I was just having a little fun with a thread that was going on way too long without getting anywhere and no apparent change of direction. You can't argue with your o-p-i-n-i-o-n Sorry if I tried to stir you up too much just for grins!! As I said, I too have a hard time finding someplace in Florida that excites me.

Matt, I actually do see the level of courses being built in the country. I'm probably one of the few people that visits a number of new golf courses even remotely close to the number that you do in a year! Plus, I know I have better access on the private side of courses, and in a match I'm certain I'd have to give you shots!   Those things don't matter in this discussion, but it illustrates that there are people that have equally educated opinions. I just felt like stirring the pot when it appeared that opinions were validated by who sees the most courses.

In summary, there are other people that visit and study plenty of courses in a year (and are actually better players, so they see things that you may even miss ). The basis of their opinion may come from a different direction (perhaps the golf business apart from writing). Nobody is right or wrong, because everyone will draw a different line of expectation to begin from.

As Conley can attest, I've read everything on this discussion board since this site was started. I've only posted rarely, and that's usually when a thread reaches a level of absurdity!!! So like JakaB, don't take my words too seriously and sit back and laugh at how this whole thread has progressed  

All the best,

Doug

[Matt_Ward]

Doug S:

Amen to your last post -- maybe we can tee it up somewhere in "04 and compare notes -- on new courses outside of Florida if that's OK with you.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

Why don't you bundle this thread up and email to all the architects that you think could build great courses in Florida inspite of our flat land, etc.

Let's see if they think they can build great courses here. After all, with bulldozers, can't they create enough topography to create great courses?

I'd love to see what Tom Doak, Coore and Crenshaw and others who are perhaps not total minimalists think.

[ChasLawler]

Matt - my only point, which I can see we don't agree on (at least I think) is that you shouldn't judge a state's architecture on a "batting average".

When compared to every other state, with the exception of NY, NJ, and PA. Florida's top 25 holds up pretty damn well. So maybe the original title of your thread, should have read, "why I can't stand golf everywhere but NY, NJ, and PA?"

I have little doubt that you know more about Florida golf than I do, and I am in no way loyal to the state of Florida.

Perhaps you are right in that the state of Florida is lacking in "high octane quality golf", but that can be said for many other states as well, regardless of the number of courses in a  state. My home state, Virginia, comes to mind.

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Junah:

Fair point. But consider this. Virginia is making some serious headway with newcomers like Kinloch and the courses that are being built along the I-81 corridor stretching from Bristol to the Maryland line. You do have some rather plain jane layouts in the Virginia Beach area but even in that spot you have new courses that are clearly a bit beyond the flat as pancake layouts that dominate the Florida landscape.

Virginia does have bermuda but it does have more interesting terrain and the architect's have seen fit to try to imbue a few of the layouts there with something beyond the predictable and tired routings / shot values you see in Florida.

quassi:

Check out Seminole when time permits for just one example. While you're at it venture over to TPC / Stadium or Innisbrook (Copper Head) or any other well done layout.

The architect's have also designed good layouts on flat sites such as Pine Tree -- to name just one example. I didn't say it can't be done -- nor did I say it was easy to do.

However, too many of the layouts you see in Florida are pre-packaged formulaic designs IMHO.

quassi, I'm sorry you live in a state that has sadly wasted so much time, effort and $$ on dumb-down layouts for the most part. I disagree with your conclusion about other architects being unable to do what you propose. Just check out Tom Doak's new layout in Lubbock, TX -- the course was built on a former dead flat cotton field and it is a first rate effort.

[John_Cullum]

Check out Seminole when time permits

I just called in a tee time for friday afternoon. Anyone care to join me ?

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

I think I may have not made myself clear.

What I was trying to say: I have no doubt that fine work can be done on a dead flat site, a few that I have personaly seen are Whistling Straits, The Links at Fancourt, and Shadow Creek.

What I do not understand is why we have not seen Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, etc;, come into southern Florida and do some outstanding work. Is it because they prefer to work only with outstanding sites, or because their philosophy of mininalism does not work in Florida?

If that is the case, who out there are the architects that are willing to take the chance of moving alot of dirt, and creating an outstanding course out of nothing?

I agree that it is probably impossible to do in a housing development, but there are plenty of private opportunities that could allow for this type of work.

[Derek Deschler]

Matt,

I agree to a great extent, but you will find a few excellent ones as well down there.  If you ever go back with your sticks, I would recommend the two courses at "Orange County National."  It was five years ago that I played the Panther course, but it was extremely picturesque and fair.  Great shaping and interesting greens.  Orange tree orchards lining many holes.  Played in the spring with the flowers on the trees blooming.  The smell was intoxicating...  Just outside of Orlando.  Rated top 10 in the U.S. in 1998, Golf Digest.  Look them up.  They have some excellent pictures on the site:  

 http://www.golfingorlando.com/html/oc_national.html  

[John_Conley]

Derek:

Matt will probably give the two courses at OCN an F and F-.