[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

With all due respect - TPC / Sawgrass is a wonderful demanding layout but it lacks the necessary architectural heft to be ahead of Ballyneal in my mind.

WW/PB is a fine layout -- Black Mesa is clearly ahead of it and if only one spot were left between a Calusa Pines and Kingsley the MI course wins in a walk.

I fully agree on the last two points although Calusa Pines is a very fine layout. Sawgrass though is one of my favorites and comes in ahead of the rest of the courses mentioned in this post on my list. Black Mesa is a very close second, however.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Whenever I ask you a question, you do your best to avoid answering it.

Question after question has gone unaddressed, hence, I can only conclude that you don't know the answer, or, know the answer and know that it doesn't sit well with your position.

Which, if I recall correctly, is that all, or almost all Florida courses are built on swamps.

According to you, all the surrounding homes, which people paid hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars must have also been built on swamps as well.

Have you ever played Jupiter Hills, The Medalist, Sailfish Point, Pine Tree, CC Florida, Everglades, Palm Beach CC, LaGorce, Coral Ridge, Diplomat, Bayshore, Gulfstream, Jupiter Island, Seminole, The Breakers, Boca Raton, Royal Palm and the hundreds of clubs on the Gold Coast that weren't built on swamps, but on sand based soil ?

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

Whenever I ask you a question, you do your best to avoid answering it.

Question after question has gone unaddressed, hence, I can only conclude that you don't know the answer, or, know the answer and know that it doesn't sit well with your position.

Pat, I can say the same to you.  In fact you failed to address the article I posted showing how housing and golf courses would be built on wetland (read: swamp); you also failed to address the fact that Pete Dye said himself in another article that he built TPC on a swamp.

Which, if I recall correctly, is that all, or almost all Florida courses are built on swamps.

According to you, all the surrounding homes, which people paid hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars must have also been built on swamps as well.

I said that when most people think of Florida golf, they don't think about Seminole, et. al, they think about courses built out of swamp.

Have you ever played Jupiter Hills, The Medalist, Sailfish Point, Pine Tree, CC Florida, Everglades, Palm Beach CC, LaGorce, Coral Ridge, Diplomat, Bayshore, Gulfstream, Jupiter Island, Seminole, The Breakers, Boca Raton, Royal Palm and the hundreds of clubs on the Gold Coast that weren't built on swamps, but on sand based soil ?

FOR THE 9000th time, I have not played those courses, keep asking though.  Nor are those courses relevant as I specifically said, by way of using Seminole as proxy, that those courses WERE NOT what I was speaking of when speaking of Florida golf.  Do you read my posts or do you just want them to say something they don't so you can misdirect the conversation. 

Did you see the thread about West Palm Beach GC, the Dick Wilson built on sand?  That course is a lot of fun and I have no doubt there are more over there like that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Whenever I ask you a question, you do your best to avoid answering it.

Question after question has gone unaddressed, hence, I can only conclude that you don't know the answer, or, know the answer and know that it doesn't sit well with your position.

Pat, I can say the same to you.    No you can't.  I addressed all of your questions.  You almost never address mine

In fact you failed to address the article I posted showing how housing and golf courses would be built on wetland (read: swamp);

I addressed that question, you just didn't read my answer or forgot about it.  The land for Mirasol at the NW corner of Immokalee and Collier is farmland and dense woods.  Why don't you drive down there and see for yourself

you also failed to address the fact that Pete Dye said himself in another article that he built TPC on a swamp.

No, I didn't.  Either your reading comprehension skills and/or your memory are faulty.  I addressed that question by "quoting" Pete Dye.
I'm hoping to have source material on the condition of the land that TPC was created on, in 1978,  shortly

Which, if I recall correctly, is that all, or almost all Florida courses are built on swamps.

According to you, all the surrounding homes, which people paid hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars must have also been built on swamps as well.

I said that when most people think of Florida golf, they don't think about Seminole, et. al, they think about courses built out of swamp.

How would you know that ?
Did you take a survey ?

I also stated that you have to distinguish Resort and Residential clubs from Private clubs, that the comparison has to be between Private clubs, since that's what Seminole is.

Have you ever played Jupiter Hills, The Medalist, Sailfish Point, Pine Tree, CC Florida, Everglades, Palm Beach CC, LaGorce, Coral Ridge, Diplomat, Bayshore, Gulfstream, Jupiter Island, Seminole, The Breakers, Boca Raton, Royal Palm and the hundreds of clubs on the Gold Coast that weren't built on swamps, but on sand based soil ?

FOR THE 9000th time, I have not played those courses, keep asking though.  Nor are those courses relevant as I specifically said, by way of using Seminole as proxy, that those courses WERE NOT what I was speaking of when speaking of Florida golf.  Do you read my posts or do you just want them to say something they don't so you can misdirect the conversation. 


You said, and repeated it, that when people thought of golf courses in Florida, they thought that they were built on swamps.
I can assure you that people who know of, or who have played those courses, don't think they were built on swamps.

Did you see the thread about West Palm Beach GC, the Dick Wilson built on sand? 
That course is a lot of fun and I have no doubt there are more over there like that.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that courses built in Florida aren't all built on swamps as you first claimed

[JC Jones]

Pat,

I address your relevant questions.  I was at the corner of Immokalee and Collier on Friday, were you?  Have you seen the land?  Have you played golf on it?

The article was quoting Pete Dye.  There is your source material.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.  Go back and read the thread because you have created a strawman and continue to refute positions I have not made.  I never said they were all built on swamps.  When are you going to admit that, at least, some are?

[Bill_McBride]

Andy:

With all due respect - TPC / Sawgrass is a wonderful demanding layout but it lacks the necessary architectural heft to be ahead of Ballyneal in my mind.

WW/PB is a fine layout -- Black Mesa is clearly ahead of it and if only one spot were left between a Calusa Pines and Kingsley the MI course wins in a walk.

I fully agree on the last two points although Calusa Pines is a very fine layout. Sawgrass though is one of my favorites and comes in ahead of the rest of the courses mentioned in this post on my list. Black Mesa is a very close second, however.

Andy, you would seriously rather play at TPC Sawgrass than Black Mesa?

Yikes.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy, you would seriously rather play at TPC Sawgrass than Black Mesa?

Yikes.

I can't believe it took all day for someone to comment on that. They're both in my second ten and out of ten rounds it would be 5-5 but for one round I'd rather another shot at Sawgrass. It is pretty good after all! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I address your relevant questions. 
I was at the corner of Immokalee and Collier on Friday, were you?  No
Have you seen the land?  Yes
Have you played golf on it?No, and neither have you.

The article was quoting Pete Dye.  There is your source material.

JC, your source material is an ARTICLE, which doesn't have the facts right.

The land wasn't a swamp, it wasn't wetlands, it was a pine forest, which was used commercially as a source for pine sap/tar and terpentine.  In addition, the land was zoned as commercial and residential
If you look at the hole by hole photos of TPC on their website, you can see those tall, majestic pines lining the fairways.

The land was very flat, barely 4 feet above sea level, and it didn't drain well after heavy rains, but, it wasn't a swamp, as you claim.
Trust me, my source is irrefutable, so quit while you're behind on this one.


Please stop misrepresenting what I said.  Go back and read the thread because you have created a strawman and continue to refute positions I have not made.  I never said they were all built on swamps.  When are you going to admit that, at least, some are?

Below, I'm listing some of your quotes which speak for themselves:

If you look at what a Doak 0 is, I think that AT LEAST 98% of Florida courses are Doak 0's.  AND I LIVE HERE.

Its not Seminole that is the problem, its 993 of the other 999 that is bothersome.

I'm talking about courses built out of the swamp. 
Are those what people think about when they think Florida golf or do people think Seminole?
[/b][/size]

[JC Jones]

Sir Mucci,

Until you show where you got your information, I'll go with the QUOTE from the article I posted.  We arent talking about "facts," we are talking about a quote.

Also, no where in the quotes you posted did I say ALL courses in Florida were built out a swamp and I especially exempted Seminole from that statement and all the other courses you listed using Seminole as a proxy.   Nice try though. 

Straw grasping at its finest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sir Mucci,

Until you show where you got your information, I'll go with the QUOTE from the article I posted.

JC,  My information is irrefutable, my source, unimpeachable.
      Your "source" is an article. 

We arent talking about "facts," we are talking about a quote.

No, you're talking about a "quote" in an article, I'm talking about the cold, hard "facts".

Did you know that the land upon which the TPC sits, before the $ 1 sale was zoned mixed use, commercial and residential ?
Is that how they zone swamps in Florida ?

Did you know that the sale of that land (5,400 acres) went for $ 1,575 per acre prior to the sale of the 415 acre parcel to the PGA Tour for $ 1 ?

Did you know that the previous sale for that parcel (5,400), plus an additional 600 acres, was for $ 200 an acre ?

Did you know that the check for $ 1 was never cashed ?

Do you think that I just may have the facts, the cold hard facts and nothing but the facts ?
Whereas, you have some vague article as your source ?

Ask Bob Huntley whether you should continue with pitting your source against mine 

Also, no where in the quotes you posted did I say ALL courses in Florida were built out a swamp and I especially exempted Seminole from that statement and all the other courses you listed using Seminole as a proxy.   Nice try though. 

Yes, I recall, out of 999 courses you exempted Seminole and 6 others, leaving 99.3 % as swamp .

[JC Jones]

Yes, I recall, out of 999 courses you exempted Seminole and 6 others, leaving 99.3 % as swamp . [/b][/size][/color]

I also said that I was being hyperbolic and over the top for the purpose of sparking discussion but even if I weren't, 99.3% is ALL

I'll believe your source over mine when I see proof. 

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Well said.

BM is the better overall experience than TPC / Sawgrass. No doubt under calm conditions the FL layout is likely the tougher course but BM is by no means a slouch in that regard -- especially when handling a severe cross wind.

Andy is quite diplomatic in what he says but TPC / Sawgrass is just hell for the average player and there are a few holes there that are merely OK -- check out the opener and the 2nd which come quickly to mind.

Black Mesa has the more playable elements than a day at TPC / Sawgrass. What's funny is how people rave about playing such a hole like the par-3 17th there and yet the penal nature of the hole really puts it to the likes of Joe and Jane Sixpacks.

Still an interesting mix of two distinct courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, I recall, out of 999 courses you exempted Seminole and 6 others, leaving 99.3 % as swamp . [/b][/size][/color]

I also said that I was being hyperbolic and over the top for the purpose of sparking discussion but even if I weren't, 99.3% is ALL

I'll believe your source over mine when I see proof. 

JC, 

My source is the owner of the 5,400 acre parcel, the man who sold a small portion of that parcel, 415 acres, to the PGA Tour for $ 1.

Would you say that that's an irrefutable, unimpeachable source ?

Or, do you want to continue to cite some random article as being a more reliable source over the word of the man who owned that land, a man who lived there and was intimately familiar with that land from a physical and commercial perspective.

I advised you to contact Bob Huntley before proceeding further, but.... did you listen ?  Noooooo, you didn't
And now, now you have egg on your face.
All because you didn't listen to me.  Maybe next time, you'll know better

[JC Jones]

Yes, I recall, out of 999 courses you exempted Seminole and 6 others, leaving 99.3 % as swamp . [/b][/size][/color]

I also said that I was being hyperbolic and over the top for the purpose of sparking discussion but even if I weren't, 99.3% is ALL

I'll believe your source over mine when I see proof. 

JC, 

My source is the owner of the 5,400 acre parcel, the man who sold a small portion of that parcel, 415 acres, to the PGA Tour for $ 1.

Would you say that that's an irrefutable, unimpeachable source ?

Or, do you want to continue to cite some random article as being a more reliable source over the word of the man who owned that land, a man who lived there and was intimately familiar with that land from a physical and commercial perspective.

I advised you to contact Bob Huntley before proceeding further, but.... did you listen ?  Noooooo, you didn't
And now, now you have egg on your face.
All because you didn't listen to me.  Maybe next time, you'll know better

Pat, please distinguish wetlands with woods from a swamp.  And are you sure you want to continue to call Pete Dye a liar? 

I'm sure the learned and distinguished Bob Huntley has better things to do than to get involved in your cause du jour. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, I recall, out of 999 courses you exempted Seminole and 6 others, leaving 99.3 % as swamp . [/b][/size][/color]

I also said that I was being hyperbolic and over the top for the purpose of sparking discussion but even if I weren't, 99.3% is ALL

I'll believe your source over mine when I see proof. 

JC, 

My source is the owner of the 5,400 acre parcel, the man who sold a small portion of that parcel, 415 acres, to the PGA Tour for $ 1.

Would you say that that's an irrefutable, unimpeachable source ?

Or, do you want to continue to cite some random article as being a more reliable source over the word of the man who owned that land, a man who lived there and was intimately familiar with that land from a physical and commercial perspective.

I advised you to contact Bob Huntley before proceeding further, but.... did you listen ?  Noooooo, you didn't
And now, now you have egg on your face.
All because you didn't listen to me.  Maybe next time, you'll know better

Pat, please distinguish wetlands with woods from a swamp. 

I can assure you that the property in question was NOT wetlands with woods.
The owner is quite emphatic on that point.
And, no agencies that I know of allow wetlands to be zoned for commercial and residential use.
Just admit that your source is incorrect on this issue

And are you sure you want to continue to call Pete Dye a liar? 

I've known Pete personally since the late 60's, when he was building Harbor Town.
I stand by my position without fear of contradiction.

You choose to cite some article as your source, whereas my source is irrefutable, having first hand knowledge of the land in question.
My source isn't a dentist, doctor or lawyer, but, the real estate developer for the site, he knows real estate like the back of his hand, especially Florida real estate, particullarly Ponte Vedra real estate, which he owned and sold to the PGA Tour for $ 1.

Please stop trying to defend your position and source as you look foolish

I'm sure the learned and distinguished Bob Huntley has better things to do than to get involved in your cause du jour.

Uncle Bob wouldn't get involved, he'd just tell you about the defense attorney cross examining the policemen, and the lesson to be learned  

[Andy Troeger]

Bill:

Well said.

BM is the better overall experience than TPC / Sawgrass. No doubt under calm conditions the FL layout is likely the tougher course but BM is by no means a slouch in that regard -- especially when handling a severe cross wind.

Andy is quite diplomatic in what he says but TPC / Sawgrass is just hell for the average player and there are a few holes there that are merely OK -- check out the opener and the 2nd which come quickly to mind.

Black Mesa has the more playable elements than a day at TPC / Sawgrass. What's funny is how people rave about playing such a hole like the par-3 17th there and yet the penal nature of the hole really puts it to the likes of Joe and Jane Sixpacks.

Still an interesting mix of two distinct courses.

I actually think TPC Sawgrass gets a bad rap for playability. Sure, the 17th is unplayable for most people, but I found the course as a whole to be remarkably good at allowing some room to play. You can't hack your way around the place and expect great results--I played terrible in my round, but the amount of forced carries is reasonable (#4, 9, 11, and 17 are the only four off the top of my head that can't be avoided) and almost every hole has a bail-out. While water exists on almost every hole, you have to hit it pretty bad to find it in many spots. Black Mesa would be slightly better in playability for me ONLY because you can sometimes find your ball in the desert and play it, whereas the water at Sawgrass doesn't allow that option.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The mere discussion of BM being either equal or greater than TPC / Sawgrass demonstrates for me how out of touch the national ratings are and how raters of all types are influenced by the televised moments from Ponte Vedra.

I will say this - the playability element at the FL layout is really pushing matters -- the final three holes alone can swallow balls faster than Jaws ate swimmers. For top world pros they are one thing -- for the average Joes and Janes in this world they are quite another.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Don't get me wrong--TPC Sawgrass isn't the poster child for playability. Its just not the other extreme either. For a course designed to very hard, I think its reasonable. I do think #17 is a bit out of character with the rest of the course in its penal nature. There's some pretty good strategy to the rest of the layout.

Only comment regarding your ratings analysis would be that Black Mesa is underrated; TPC Sawgrass seems about right to me.

[JC Jones]

Go back and read the article regarding Mirasol and the land on Immokalee and Collier.  The South Florida Management District granted a permit to build golf and residential on several hundred acres of wetland.  Perhaps its just that you've never heard of the South Florida Management District.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Well said.

BM is the better overall experience than TPC / Sawgrass. No doubt under calm conditions the FL layout is likely the tougher course but BM is by no means a slouch in that regard -- especially when handling a severe cross wind.

Andy is quite diplomatic in what he says but TPC / Sawgrass is just hell for the average player and there are a few holes there that are merely OK -- check out the opener and the 2nd which come quickly to mind.

Black Mesa has the more playable elements than a day at TPC / Sawgrass. What's funny is how people rave about playing such a hole like the par-3 17th there and yet the penal nature of the hole really puts it to the likes of Joe and Jane Sixpacks.

Still an interesting mix of two distinct courses.

I actually think TPC Sawgrass gets a bad rap for playability. Sure, the 17th is unplayable for most people, but I found the course as a whole to be remarkably good at allowing some room to play. You can't hack your way around the place and expect great results--I played terrible in my round, but the amount of forced carries is reasonable (#4, 9, 11, and 17 are the only four off the top of my head that can't be avoided) and almost every hole has a bail-out. While water exists on almost every hole, you have to hit it pretty bad to find it in many spots. [color=red]Black Mesa would be slightly better in playability for me ONLY because you can sometimes find your ball in the desert and play it, whereas the water at Sawgrass doesn't allow that option.
[/color]

Last night we watched 'Magnum Force' at home, Dirty Harry Callahan #2. 

In this movie is a line from Clint that sums up what is necessary to score well at Black Mesa:

"A man has got to know his limitations."

So long as you keep this in mind, you can play well at Black Mesa.

At TPC Sawgrass by contrast, the forced carries can eat your lunch.  No forced carries at Black Mesa, but don't try to overachieve, it too will eat your lunch!

Black Mesa 6-4 for me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

I worked with the South Florida Water Management Agency and the Florida Dept of Environmental Protection, County Dept of Environmental Protection, Lake Worth Water Management Agency, local municipalities and to a lesser degree the Army Corps of Engineers.

Which of those groups have you worked with ?

Please, give it up and quit while you're behind

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

My point is that TPC / Sawgrass is routinely located in the top 50 in the USA -- Black Mesa doesn't even get a sniff. The issue is about visibility and one would hope the raters -- the braintrust of thinkers -- would be able to blow all the smoke and fog away from their faces and see the situation more clearly. TPC / Sawgrass has limited playability - anyone above a ten handicap is going to have major issues - and the H20 is just one part of that equation.

Pete has done a number of stellar designs but TPC / Sawgrass is really a butt kicker for all but the most proficient.

BM is doomed because too many people don't view NM as a golf haven and because it's not on TV it simply lacks the star power pizzazz.

Put them side by side and I have BM coming out ahead and not by that close of a margin.

Amazingly, so many people are influenced by the TV coverage.

Bill:

Spot on with Black Mesa -- you say 6-4 I'd go 6 1/2 to 3 1/2. Frankly, I see the ending hole at the FL layout as sheer terror and nothing more than three ball donation for any foursome playing it.

[Bill_McBride]

Andy:

My point is that TPC / Sawgrass is routinely located in the top 50 in the USA -- Black Mesa doesn't even get a sniff. The issue is about visibility and one would hope the raters -- the braintrust of thinkers -- would be able to blow all the smoke and fog away from their faces and see the situation more clearly. TPC / Sawgrass has limited playability - anyone above a ten handicap is going to have major issues - and the H20 is just one part of that equation.

Pete has done a number of stellar designs but TPC / Sawgrass is really a butt kicker for all but the most proficient.

BM is doomed because too many people don't view NM as a golf haven and because it's not on TV it simply lacks the star power pizzazz.

Put them side by side and I have BM coming out ahead and not by that close of a margin.

Amazingly, so many people are influenced by the TV coverage.

Bill:

Spot on with Black Mesa -- you say 6-4 I'd go 6 1/2 to 3 1/2. Frankly, I see the ending hole at the FL layout as sheer terror and nothing more than three ball donation for any foursome playing it.

Matt, I disagree with that last point.  You MUST play into the right rough off that 18th tee.  The way most guys should play that hole, there is more likelihood the second shot gets wet than the first! 
Especially after you just had that forced nightmare at #17!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

The 18th makes the 17th at TPC look like a love fest.

So many times people can DONATE balls from both the tee and approach shots.

Amazingly, people rate the course very highly and that comes with TV coverage and the annual event.

Raters should know better -- alas -- many are too easily influenced.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

I worked with the South Florida Water Management Agency and the Florida Dept of Environmental Protection, County Dept of Environmental Protection, Lake Worth Water Management Agency, local municipalities and to a lesser degree the Army Corps of Engineers.

Which of those groups have you worked with ?

Please, give it up and quit while you're behind

I congratulate you on your achievements, unfortunately here is the approval for the permit to build on the wetlands on Immokalee and Collier.

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