[Matt_Ward]

John:

I do have a twin.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Guys:

The issue I originally raised wasn't that FL doesn't have quality golf -- in particular spots.

The real issue is that from the courses I have played nationwide there are very few that really have the goods to be rated nationally in whatever category they are within.

I said this before -- what's amazing is how other areas of the county have now risen the bar dramatically and are now pushing out the least of the elite best -- in many ways, that's less of a knock towards FL and more of a push upwards for other areas -- most notably the mountain time zone.

Matt,
Florida does have a couple of handfulls of courses spread across the three major ratings, that's not bad. Don't even start with the % of total, we all know why there are so many average courses in Fl.

Also, there isn't a golf course being built today that isn't trying to get on some list or other, so it's not 'amazing' at all that a group of new and provocative courses are springing up out there. Who in this day and age builds without wanting to get noticed? ...and what better way to do it than by building something substantial?  The climate, views, available land, and the trend of easterners moving there is well known, nothing really notable about that.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

FL gets plenty of exposure because of snow bird visits and likely until recent times the virtue of that exposure meant rating gains.

That will not likely continue as other areas of the country make greater strides.

Just to give two quick examples -- there's nothing in FL that can touch the likes of a Ballyneal and Rock Creek, in my mind. As sites are used which possess superior land the nature of such layouts and the routings they use will only cause more reshuffling of the deck.

Jim, from my experienced / travels -- the desire to build something substanial has always been a goal for many -- few have done so. The courses I just mentioned above -- plus the likes of Kingsley and Black Mesa, to name just two, are clearly pushing aside those layouts which possess pedestrian land sites and often times redundant routings which is the hallmark of so much of FL golf.

[Mike Sweeney]

I'm just itching to leave Sunday and say good-bye to Florida golf once and for all.

Matt,

I forget. Are you going to Colorado, Montana or Florida in two weeks?

Matt, I used to be a die hard skier and now I am like Tiger Bernhardt and I get cold when it drops below 60 degrees.   I am freezing my butt off and you are talking about superior routings! Its January Matt, embrace the Early Bird and Bermuda grass on your yet another trip to Florida. It won't be your last one!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Maybe he's going to St. George, Utah............oops, not today! 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Thanks for the mapquest assistance.

I'm actually looking forward to playing a few of the recommendations you and John C mentioned.

For those who may not know it -- I do like certain courses -- Southern Dunes in the Haines City just south of Orlando area is quite entertaining.

Jim K:

Thanks for mentioning St. George -- one of the sleeper spots in the USA for quality golf at affordable rates -- most notably Sand Hollow.

[jeffwarne]

Jim:

FL gets plenty of exposure because of snow bird visits and likely until recent times the virtue of that exposure meant rating gains.

That will not likely continue as other areas of the country make greater strides.

Just to give two quick examples -- there's nothing in FL that can touch the likes of a Ballyneal and Rock Creek, in my mind. As sites are used which possess superior land the nature of such layouts and the routings they use will only cause more reshuffling of the deck.

Jim, from my experienced / travels -- the desire to build something substanial has always been a goal for many -- few have done so. The courses I just mentioned above -- plus the likes of Kingsley and Black Mesa, to name just two, are clearly pushing aside those layouts which possess pedestrian land sites and often times redundant routings which is the hallmark of so much of FL golf.

Matt,
Lots of states can't match Ballyneal or Rock Creek for top courses (although I'm not sure I'd want to be condemned to playing all the courses in Colorado or Montana).
The thread title is why you CAN'T STAND Florida golf. (and you are of course entitled to your opinion)
I drove by Black Mesa on my way back Taos last week-it didn't look very playable, but I suppose with snoeshoes and a good labrador retriever it would be doable.
Three of the four four courses you list are located in dramatic terrain but are unplayable in the winter,which is the point of Central and south Florida golf in many/most cases.

Face it, most courses suck by your enviable high standards, you just don't bother to play them when in Georgia, Arkansas, Tennessee,Kentucky, Virginia, alabama etc.
 The reality is most development courses suck and that was the formula in Florida for years.
I've never found bermuda to be any softer than bent grass, perhaps the fact that most of your bermuda r golf has been played IN THE WINTER when conditions tend to be soft everywhere (particularly if they overseed). Plenty of northeast courses are soft in the heat of the summer and in the fall as the daylight wanes. (they also happen to be closed in the winter)
I'd be surprised if many of the teriffic new courses out west (or in Florida) are even open in 10 years.

[Jud_T]

I'm not sure I really understand this " hey, at least you can play in the winter, you need to think of the courses in the context of florida golf" thing...There are plenty of places in the country where you can play year round that have some very good courses.  No, it may not be in the mid 70's and you may have to wear long pants (a blessing in many cases  ).  I'm not saying there isn't good golf in Florida, I'm just saying why a different standard?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

There's no doubt that the terrain limits the third dimension on many of the courses in Florida, but, that doesn't mean that they're architecturally challenged.

[John_Cullum]

Matt Ward,

There's no doubt that the terrain limits the third dimension on many of the courses in Florida, but, that doesn't mean that they're architecturally challenged.

Absolutely true. The Enlightened Cognescenti rave about Secession. Find a flatter course, I dare you

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff W:

Have you played Ballyneal and Rock Creek or even Kingsley or Black Mesa ?

My point, which you missed, was that too many people CONTINUE to believe that FL is the home of national
caliber type golf. Like I said, throw out the likes of Seminole and TPC / Sawgrass and I don't see the top tier
courses there capable in competing with many of the newer courses that have emerged onto the scene in the various
places I mentioned -- specifically the mountain time zone area.

Jeff, if people MUST play 12 months then by all means knock yourself out and enjoy what FL provides. For many people who
enjoy a short break from the game the idea in returning to places with incredible sites and with matching vintange routings and
shot values there's no comparison.

FL has a number (not many mind you) of interesting courses -- for FL.

Let me also point out that various places in year around play areas -- like Stone Eagle -- should be rated much higher than they are
for all the reasons I stated previously. I can name a few others in warmer climates but because they don't have the fanfare of a FL
location get short shifted for even more awareness.

Unfortunately, there are a good many people -- who seem to believe FL is the home of national caliber golf. Like I said before -- they
should kncok themselves out and enjoy them -- because I don't see it as such.

Jeff, my high standards are based on what would be well worth playing if every in the neighborhood and likely be of national acclaim.

Those folks who are hellbent on playing no matter where or what should find FL rto their liking. But the comments made by Doak years ago in CG are still worth noting and are ones I am a true believer of.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, I agree about trying to debate Mr. Mucci, you should quit while you're behind.   

I was jealous of you and Patrick today, playing a good match on what seems to be a really good course in Florida.

[Tony Weiler]

Jeff W:


Those folks who are hellbent on playing no matter where or what should find FL rto their liking. But the comments made by Doak years ago in CG are still worth noting and are ones I am a true believer of.

Matt, I just booked 72 holes at WW Pine Barrens and Rolling Oaks in Feb.  I'm glad Doak gave PB an 8.  Looking forward to it.  Feb. 21, and 22 we might have room.  Anyone interested? 

[Matt_Ward]

Anthony:

Enjoy WW -- PB is a good layout and one of the top ten pure public courses in all of FL that I have played. Is it a Doak 8 ? I think Tom must have been wearing sunglasses that day because the sun was likely too bright. Seriously, within FL it would rate very highly -- would it rate as high nationally today with what has come forward since the facility opened a number of years ago I don't believe so.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I've played all four of the courses you are referring to (Kingsley, Black Mesa, Rock Creek, Ballyneal) and do think TPC Sawgrass matches up well with that group as a whole. I'd put it behind RCCC and slightly ahead of the other three. I can't speak for Seminole. I think Calusa Pines is a very legitimate top 100 course as well and think WW Pine Barrens belongs on the modern listing. There are many courses in Florida that don't do much for me, including a couple that are ranked rather high, but there are some gems as well.

[Jud_T]

You certainly can have very good golf courses on flat terrain, with great green complexes, strategic bunkering and enough room for a variety of angles of play off the tee.  I think the point is that the percentage of current Florida courses that make the most of their flat sites is quite small.  The good news is it looks like we'll be getting at least 2 good ones in the future!

[JC Jones]

Jason, I agree about trying to debate Mr. Mucci, you should quit while you're behind.   

I was jealous of you and Patrick today, playing a good match on what seems to be a really good course in Florida.

Bill,

Don't mistake my boredom with quitting.  I said I'd like to have a beer or a round with Pat and we could discuss more.  Moreover, don't mistake Pat's aggressive banter for being accurate or correct.  For whatever reason, he has decided to defend Florida golf not on the merits, but by reminding us all how many private clubs he has played and I have not.  I wonder if the Florida Dept of Environment guy who gives the permit for a developer to turn a swamp into a golf course couldn't have an opinion because he didn't play the golf course.  

Many Florida golf courses are built on swamps whether Pat thinks so or not.  The entire soutWEST portion of the state is effectively a moving river where much of the area near the coasts has been drained and the water has been diverted to create enough dry land for development.  As I pointed out, even Pat himself has acknowledged that courses are built on swamps (see his comment I posted above about Medalist).  See also Pete Dye regarding TPC Sawgrass being a swamp:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/06/tpc-sawgrass-pga-lifestyle-sports-golf-tpc-tournament.html

We all know what "Florida golf" is when we speak of it generally, and we all know that there are many private clubs in southEast Florida that are built on sand dunes and we know of the sand belt in central Florida where Mountain Lake and Sugarloaf are.  But we also know of the hundreds of golf courses built in Florida on swampland.  I think we all know the difference between them all too; whether we've played them or not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

You should know that I worked with the Florida DEP on golf course issues, along with County DEP and Regional and Local Water Management Agencies.

The Florida laws were so stringent that you couldn't go within 100+ feet of a Cypress Stand or swamp.

I also retained one of the most Senior attorneys for the Florida DEP, on golf course work I was involved with.

I can assure you that we couldn't go near a "swamp" let alone BUILD on it.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

You should know that I worked with the Florida DEP on golf course issues, along with County DEP and Regional and Local Water Management Agencies.

The Florida laws were so stringent that you couldn't go within 100+ feet of a Cypress Stand or swamp.

I also retained one of the most Senior attorneys for the Florida DEP, on golf course work I was involved with.

I can assure you that we couldn't go near a "swamp" let alone BUILD on it.

So you are saying that Pete Dye in the article I cited above was lying? 

I have no doubt you have been involved in these situations.  Perhaps things are different in southeast Florida, over here they have less of a problem so long as there are adequate mitigation procedures (read drainage ditches) in place and "wetlands credits" have been purchased. 

See: http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/apr/28/mirasol-gets-county-zoning-approval-developers-can/

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC Jones,

Pete Dye, in his own hand, described the site as an inpenetrable jungle.

He further stated that: in order to cut a path, he had to follow the deer tracks.
He also stated that in order to clear out the native vegetation that bordered the fairways he imported a small herd of goats.

He also stated that he used bulldozers during construction.

Perhaps he and others use the term "swamp" ia a rather broad, generic way.

A swamp is land that's permanently of periodically UNDER water.

I'm sure you're aware that TPC is only a few hundred yards from the Atlantic Ocean.

The Mirasol site appears to be farmland and woodlands

[Michael Powers]

While I would never clear the calendar to play the North and South at PGA... but a good point was made for the Dye which is orginial and fun.  Also, keep in mind that Florida is one heck of a big state and offers much in terms of fun golf and fine architecture.  I think PM beat me to it with Old Marsh (which I love) and Boca Rio, I would add Mountain Lake, Country Club of Orlando, Indian Creek, and throw in Bay Hill...although not from the tips as they just keep stretchin it out.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

Pete Dye, in his own hand, described the site as an inpenetrable jungle.

He further stated that: in order to cut a path, he had to follow the deer tracks.
He also stated that in order to clear out the native vegetation that bordered the fairways he imported a small herd of goats.

He also stated that he used bulldozers during construction.

Perhaps he and others use the term "swamp" ia a rather broad, generic way.

A swamp is land that's permanently of periodically UNDER water.

I'm sure you're aware that TPC is only a few hundred yards from the Atlantic Ocean.

I'm sure that you are aware you said nothing of relevance in this post.  I will assume your attempts at diversion are to be construed as admission you were wrong.

In addition, swamp is defined here by the USGS: http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/fringe/glossary.html

The jungle comments make sense as most north american swamps are covered in woods like vegetation.  Moreover, one could avoid the flooding that comes along with swamp land by, oh I dont know, diverting the water source....

[Patrick_Mucci]

 
I will assume your attempts at diversion are to be construed as admission you were wrong.

Do you mean like you were about The Medalist ?

In addition, swamp is defined here by the USGS: http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/fringe/glossary.html

I'll take Webster's Dictionary over a government agency's expanded definition.
Why not just take the definition supplied by State's DEP depts.

The jungle comments make sense as most north american swamps are covered in woods like vegetation. 
Moreover, one could avoid the flooding that comes along with swamp land by, oh I dont know, diverting the water source....

That seems easy, how would you divert the water source in and running into a swamp ?
[/quote]

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

With all due respect - TPC / Sawgrass is a wonderful demanding layout but it lacks the necessary architectural heft to be ahead of Ballyneal in my mind.

WW/PB is a fine layout -- Black Mesa is clearly ahead of it and if only one spot were left between a Calusa Pines and Kingsley the MI course wins in a walk.

[JC Jones]

 
I will assume your attempts at diversion are to be construed as admission you were wrong.

Do you mean like you were about The Medalist ?

In addition, swamp is defined here by the USGS: http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/fringe/glossary.html

I'll take Webster's Dictionary over a government agency's expanded definition.
Why not just take the definition supplied by State's DEP depts.

The jungle comments make sense as most north american swamps are covered in woods like vegetation. 
Moreover, one could avoid the flooding that comes along with swamp land by, oh I dont know, diverting the water source....

That seems easy, how would you divert the water source in and running into a swamp ?

[/quote]

More like you'll take the definition that supports your position the most.  Of course, whether you take Websters, USGS or anything else, it is still irrelevant and you have still failed to address my point.

How do you divert the water source?  Ummm, haven't we been over this?  Remember the whole part about drainage ditches?

You have gone from setting up strawmen to grasping at straws.

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