[Matt_Ward]

John:

Just realize this -- regional and state publications, with few exceptions, may create "polls" and "ratings" to placate their advertisers. That's nothing new.

Also, keep in mind that localized magazines depend upon their "readers" and because of access issues it's unlikely you will see much from them on the ultra private places. That's why I always placed a good deal of skepticism when I read "Florida GolfWeek" in the 80's because the articles never really explored the criteria used, the guidelines placed upon reader's input (i.e. no more than one-survey per person)
and whether or not the editorial team at the pub really
cross-checked to see if the info they were / are getting is accurate.

That's something we do at Jersey Golfer because when it becomes patently obvious that the people behind-the-scenes are manipulating the info or allowing "uninformed types" to dictate the outcomes then the "golfer" reader who wants such info will be sadly disappointed. In the end analysis -- credibility and methodology are essential for it to have any sort of value. As you mentioned previously -- that info from those surveys back in the 80's was slanted for a particular purpose.

P.S. Before going -- I have heard Southern Dunes is in its best condition ever -- can you comment on that? From the two times I previously played the course the greens were the only feature that were above average. Thanks!

[SteveTL]

I'm going to play Southern Dunes either this Friday afternoon or more likely a week from Thursday...

I'll report back...

[mark chalfant]

 re the panhandle

has anyone played Eglin AFB  near Niceville  (panhandle)  ??

18 of those  36 holes were designed by W.  Langford.


thanks for some details.


Mark

[frank_D]

-- I hate Florida golf!. It's the golf architecture -- or the sad lack thereof.

now that i have a current experience of NJ(architects GC(SAT 11/29)) and NY(siwanoy(FRI 11/28) and sprain lake(SUN 11/30)) golf - i feel better qualified to respond  - but with a more philosophical approach to good v bad architecture

i am defining florida golf as "bad" architecture in your premise

i) i would rather play year round on a lesser recognized designed course than a only a few times a year on a more famous designed course - i want to play every week at least once and be able to WALK the course

ii)even famous designed courses - according to critics i have read - have "bad" holes (one example i can remember was about pebble beach as a course with many great, some good and a few mediocre holes)

iii)the architecture alone does NOT a fun / pleasant / good time / memorable round make - it is only a part of the experience for some and a non-issue for many and THE issue for only a few

iv)i have read many times the geography dictates to a large degree the potential - so if flat land is predominant what can be done ?

v)most of the truly "good" architecture are courses that are private - and inexcessable anyway - so eventhough i live in florida i may never play seminole nor do i pay more than $100 per round period which is what it would approximate to join the clubs near me - in other words lets just say for a moment florida architecture is "bad" and every other geographic location is "good" and "private" - i guess by definition i am along with most other golfers relegated to play only "bad" courses - as all the "good" are off limits to all but the members

vi)its not for lack of trying - no less than greg norman, nicklaus, palmer, world golf hall of fame etc have relatively recently(within the last twenty years) come to florida investing time money and resources - maybe florida is just low on the learning curve and will someday catch up - which is why i do not compare siwanoy (1901 donald ross / 1916 initial PGA wanamaker cup) with anything other that early 1900's architecture - much the same timeframes paintings, construction (bridges / buiding) architecture are aligned into when comparing those disciplines - i don't think this era is the "GOLDEN AGE" of golf

vii)the good v bad debate is ultimatley subjective and not solvable as neat as say a math equation - though i for one do appreciate a hole that has a multiple of options - to make you think (for example say a 400 yard hole with a creek across the fairway at about 220 to 230 - carry the creek and you got 160 - lay up and you got 190 - a drive of 220 to 230 in the creek you got a penalty stroke along with the 190)

viii)i seems you should either be hating "bad architecture" in florida or "florida" but i don't find the combination of the two particularly meaningful - is "bad" only in florida in your opinion - if not why hate only florida and not also "bad" in iowa or michigan or nevada or maine OR if you hate florida what difference does what it contains ("good" or "bad")  make

i'm not looking to persuade you but i would suggest you read some Harvey Penick on the topics of golf being a privilage to play and not take it so cut and dry or black and white -

besides when i get bored on florida courses i simply take aim for the biggest picture window of the biggest most expensive house closest to the fairway or tee box (not hard to do on boca raton hotel CC or the presidential in hollywood) and that usually is enough to get my adrenilin back up

[Casey Wade]

Matt,  I used to work at Perdido Bay Golf Resort(now called the Sportsman at Perdido)1998.  I haven't played it since they took out about 1,500 trees but I have heard it is in good shape and was fun.  If you want to drive over to Alabama, play in Gulf Shores.  There are quite a few really good tracks like Kiva Dunes(Jerry Pate design) and Peninsula.  Also Craft Farms has three golf courses and there is always Lost Ball, er.. Lost Key Plantation.

[Matt_Ward]

cwade:

Thanks for the heads-up. I last played Perdido Bay 15 years ago and I thought the course was quite good but needed a good bit of tree removal as your post indicated. I hope to see other courses along the Gulf Coast in Alabama sometime soon.

frank d:

In simple terms -- with very few exceptions -- the overall land area for Florida stinks! It's the same thing with water and houses being the predominant feature.

Frank -- I'm not interested in quantity golf. If that floats your boat that you want to play all the time an dbe able to walk so be it. I don't play golf JUST to play golf. I want to play courses that have something to offer beyond the mere enjoyment in playing 18 holes.

The land is Florida's worst attribute -- not counting the general piss poor routings and development plans that often clog the scene. You also have the slow bermuda turf that simply mandates the aerial game unless those few courses allow it to be dormant during the winter months without overseeding it.

Frank -- Florida has a very tiny number of courses worthy of architectural interest -- even the die-hard types who live there concede the obvious.

Frank -- enjoy what you want -- that's what makes the game so much fun. The Sunshine State has a great many things that people enjoy -- but for me the golf quotient is a really low number because of all the reasons that I have articulated in this thread. If you see it differently -- be my guest and knock yourself out on all those scintilating layouts.  

[frank_D]

f you see it differently -- be my guest and knock yourself out on all those scintilating layouts.  

why don't you join me this weekend ? - i have a 2PM time at the Billtmore (classic donald ross) on SAT DEC 6 and / or a 9AM time at Grand Palms (classic arthur hill) on SUN DEC 7

i can arrange a caddie at either or both

the weather is expected to be in the mid 60's and sunny

i don't think you'll be disappointed in either course

with the way the weather was for me at the architect's gc last week i doubt you'll play any in NW NJ this weekend

my only point is the courses you played are the typically tourist traps which are ALWAYS overpriced and disappointing - but i think this is too small a sample size to prosecute most of the rest - and i know you have stated "some" are good - but if you let the "natives" guide you you won't get lost at the tourist traps and possible discover more "good" courses

[John_Conley]

Frank:

You are right about how Matt's experience at a "tourist trap" somehow gets extrapolated to in simple terms -- with very few exceptions -- the overall land area for Florida stinks!

One thing this long thread has made clear is that while you, I, and others don't penalize Florida for having a large denominator, Matt does.

There's good land for golf in Florida, but you won't see it if you stay close to Miami, Naples, and Orlando.

[frank_D]

There's good land for golf in Florida, but you won't see it if you stay close to Miami, Naples, and Orlando.

Amen Brother Conley

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

I think you understand the points I have made -- even counting for the hyperbole. Florida golf is what it is -- MINUS the few exceptions that this long thread has noted.

There is high octane golf in the state but when you size up the entire picture the Sunshine State is a major league disappointment from an architectural perspective. Nothing more / nothing less.

I hope to play the more noted courses you highlighted in the Orlando area when I visit for the PGA Show.

Frank:

I'm in Phoenix right now and the weather is grand. Thanks for the invite -- I hope to return to Florida for the PGA Show.

[ChasLawler]

There is high octane golf in the state but when you size up the entire picture the Sunshine State is a major league disappointment from an architectural perspective. Nothing more / nothing less

Who sizes up the entire picture for a state?
...and why?

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Junah:

If you think Florida is a "must" visit from an architectural golf side then you clearly need to see other states.

I've already answered several times the aspect you are looking for. Florida has verrrrrrrrrrrrry little high octane golf choices that are first rate nationally from an architectural perspective. You have cut and paste variety of the same thing in most instances IMHO.

[ChasLawler]

Matt - OK then

could you please change the title of this thread to:

 Why Florida is not a "must visit" from an architectural golf side?

[John_Conley]

Junah:

I've suspected Matt agrees with me, but he made a generalization so wide Tony Siragusa could fit through it and I just wasn't able to let that slide.

Does Florida have as much great golf as the NE?  Heck no, but nobody said they did.

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Junah:

Florida is the premier example of real estate golf gone wild. It simply has so little from a "must play" perspective for those who are really into architectural gems. The people that visit GCA are the types of people I am speaking about specifically.

Look, I don't play golf just for the sake of playing golf. I venture to locales that have the kind of golf that says you "must" go play it. Florida has very few of those types of places. ]

The reasons are simple ...

1). Poor land -- the flat earth society
2). Over reliance on bermuda turf that overdoses the aerial game
3). Poor routings that feature the same redundant patterns

John C:

Where's the generalization my good friend? The facts are simple -- most of Florida golf is your basic 18 holes with water and OB and housing being the standard fare -- let's also not forget the desire to insert forced carries over wetlands in a number of instances. There's nothing wrong with saying that and indeed, with very few exceptions out of the total of 1100+ courses, that's what's there. Why do Floridians not see what is clearly obvious. It's not meant to insult anyone personally -- it's just that golf is really nothing more than fast food type stuff.

You're right -- it's not in the same league as NE golf but it also short when you compare it to other areas of the country. I'm in AZ right now and in my mind AZ golf has more variety than what you see in Florida.

John -- we do agree -- so what's the problem in understanding what I have always stated on this thread? I have noted the exceptions that are exceptional and should be seen as "must" plays. I think we do agree but it seems there is a tendency to simply avoid what is clearly obvious -- at least it is to me.

[frank_D]

It simply has so little from a "must play" perspective for those who are really into architectural gems. I venture to locales that have the kind of golf that says you "must" go play it. Florida has very few of those types of places. it's just that golf is really nothing more than fast food type stuff

let's get some real numbers and not be subjective -

2004 SCHEDULES
PGA Tour             7 tournaments on 8 Florida courses
                      (1 a minor major - the Players championship)

Champions Tour    6 tournaments on 7 Florida courses
(seniors tour)

note - ALL 15 above are public access or resort access MOST other states tournamnets are private country clubs (i would at least call florida user friendly on tournament caliber courses)

are you suggesting the above professional on tour play architecturally inferior courses ?

ALSO -
MOST PGA / Senior touring pro reside in Florida  (85+/-)
(including 7 of the top 20)
MANY European touring pros reside in Florida (25+/-)  
Isleworth (Windemere) is home to Tiger and Mark O'M and Jasper and Ernie [no other club has as many current titleists]

why would the EXPERTS above pick such a vast architectural wasteland ?

ALSO -
name ANY publication that does NOT name courses in florida in their "must play" list - ANY publication listing twenty anywhere worldwide (including the US states) would include at least one florida course

ALSO -
in an unscientific analysis using GD places to play 5th edition - i have found other states with a higher ratio of "cow pastures" (one star) to "gems" than florida - (i did not include the no star unrated courses listed in my sample size)

conclusion -
i think you simple played the WORST FIRST - but on the other hand that leaves the REST BEST

[Michael Moore]

Mr D -

I believe that many pros live in Florida to reduce their income  tax burden.

[Matt_Ward]

frank d:

The profusion of tournaments means only one thing -- the weather allows for it in the cold months. Architectural wonders don't inhabit the State of Florida by any large measure. I've mentioned the ones that are "absolute must plays" and believe me, there aren't that many.

You somehow confuse the amount of professional golf with sort of linkage to architectural gems. Sadly, things don't work out that way.

Do you actually believe Doral / Blue is still such a wonder. Ditto Bay Hill -- ditto whatever layout they are playing the Honda Classic on now. The only two layouts of note are the TPC / Stadium Course and Innisbrook / Copperhead.

Frank -- there's plenty of quantity in Florida -- but the architectural wonders are very few and very far in between.

Enjoy the holidays ...

[frank_D]

I believe that many pros live in Florida to reduce their income  tax burden.

to some extent this is true - yes florida does NOT have a personal income tax

however this is somewhat mitigated by the non-resident requirements in most other states requiring the florida resident touring pro winnings to be taxable in those states as non-resident earnings

(ie if a pro residing in FLA wins money in NY / CALIF etc tornament he/she is required to file a NYS / CALIF etc non-resident return and pay tax on those winnings to NY / CALIF etc) - however a florida resident pro would pay no tax to florida on either the NY / CALIF etc winnings or on any florida tournament winnings

the big money - endorsements - are possibly allocatable where earned - which could be florida or not - i don't know

[frank_D]

Architectural wonders don't inhabit the State of Florida by any large measure.

- ditto whatever layout they are playing the Honda Classic on now.

my last and final note on this -

what state(s) do architectural wonders inhabit in large measure (relative to the total i assume) ?

how can you be so sure the current honda classic layout is a dud ? (it's mirasol by greg norman FYI)

thanks - you too

[cary lichtenstein]

The Honda is being played this year at Tom Fazio's new course at Mirasol. I hear it's pretty good. I'll be playing it soon, so I'll let you know what I find.

[cary lichtenstein]

You Florida haters out there, this is the time of year to come down to Florida. Weather is great, even if our land is flat and boring

[Jim Franklin]

I thoroughly enjoyed playing Pine Tree which is easily the flattest course I have ever played. The strategy involved with all of the bunkers, shallow greens, wind, quick greens was very interesting. I would enjoy playing there everyday as I would learn something new about playing the course each time. There is no eye candy at Pine Tree at all.

Give me Florida golf now as opposed to the 10" of snow I just flew back too any day. The other courses I played were pretty nice too.

[Mike Sweeney]

Let me make matters a bit more simpler -- can anyone with knowledge of Orlando golf outline their "five must play" courses that are within 45-60 minutes of the PGA Show. I have played quite a few courses but don't have the time, patience and desire to do a major league dog and pony show visit to the ones that are well worth passing.

If someone can also provide a five most overrated listing of layouts in that same area it would be also appreciated.

Thanks ...

Matt agreed with me on another thread, so I could not let that last too long as we head into the next decade. 

Matt,

1. Mountain Lake - you were there years ago. Go see the Silva renovation.

2. World Woods Pine Barrens - the conditioning has improved......

3. Sugarloaf - Okay, not the greatest C&C, but moving forward, we may start to appreciate the failed housing course in Florida where you can walk and Melvyn would be somewhat happy.

4. The Concession - haven't played it and a long drive but sounds nice from "The New Nicklaus" from a number of people.

5. Highlands Reserve - good conditioning, good layout, great price, houses on only a few holes......In the new economy, guys like you should be promoting solid if not spectacular courses like HR.

Overrated:

1. Bay Hill - Have a friend there, and they just redid the course again but flat is flat.

2-5 The Disney courses.

[Ronald Montesano]

I would add Victoria Hills and Deltona Club to the equation.  If you consider Sugarloaf, I think that these two hold their own with it.

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