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Matt_Cohn

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CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« on: May 30, 2021, 01:20:51 PM »
Just saw this. CBS at 1:30 Eastern/10:30 Pacific. Half hour show by PGA Tour Originals or about the renovation. Don’t know anything else about it.


Update: luckily I already knew pretty much what they did to every hole. Otherwise I would have found Jack's descriptions rather difficult to follow.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 02:04:37 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2021, 02:58:28 PM »
I caught it.  Made me think it would be nice to have Ross on film talking Pinehurst.  Nothing surprising out of Jack on this one.  Lowered some hills and fw that had partially blind shots, reshaped a few greens to make them hold shots better.  On one he mentioned the steep slopes meant no matter where you hit it, the shot funneled down to the same place, and went back to gentel rolls everywhere. 


On another green (think it was the long par 3 4th hole, I made note because of the crowned green thread) he lowered the middle and raised the back, each 8".  The surprise in his voice when someone told him the green rolled off the back was great, and he had them fix that right away.


Moved a couple fw bunkers back, lowered the 11th hole fw 10 feet to remove a blind shot, etc.  On the 11th green, he moved it left so golfers wouldn't have to slice into the green when reaching it in two.  Sounded about right to me, since the green angled right to left.


Most changes he gave a pretty straightforward explanation of, like shaving a green in on the left so you could see the bunker.  On a few descriptions, like one green where he added a bunker left and bunker right, he only noted that he thought that would be very nice.  On those, I would have liked to have heard more. 


That said, he certainly gave the impression of a logical, start with the shot, and form follows function design method.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Cohn

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2021, 07:46:33 PM »
On a few descriptions, he only noted that he thought that would be very nice.  On those, I would have liked to have heard more. 


"Nice" does seem to be his word.

Carl Rogers

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2021, 08:02:40 PM »
Will the Confidential Guide return to make a new assessment?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2021, 08:09:01 PM »
Will the Confidential Guide return to make a new assessment?


That book is written!

Pete_Pittock

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2021, 05:46:58 PM »
according to another website Nicklaus just learned that the 16th green had a negative camber at the back. He thought it was built as designed.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 06:25:42 PM »
He is consistent.  When he did that CBS Sunday Morning episode a few years back, they recorded him chastising an associate for proposing a reverse slope of the back of a 440+ par four green.  So much for the "crowned green" theory so many here seem to like.


It reminds me of a few similar features I saw when playing with Lee Trevino (as well as similar comments by other pros I know).  Looking at a feature that rolled away from the chip shot (to a creek) Trevino's comment was, "If I can't play this, how in the heck did the architect figure the weekend player was going to play it?"
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 11:14:29 PM »
Looking at a feature that rolled away from the chip shot (to a creek) Trevino's comment was, "If I can't play this, how in the heck did the architect figure the weekend player was going to play it?"


Not even weekend golfers bitch about the golf course as much as Lee Trevino could.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2021, 02:03:12 AM »
Looking at a feature that rolled away from the chip shot (to a creek) Trevino's comment was, "If I can't play this, how in the heck did the architect figure the weekend player was going to play it?"


Not even weekend golfers bitch about the golf course as much as Lee Trevino could.


"Get a picture of me going out the gate because you won't ever see me coming back in again"


Trevino on Royal Melbourne. 1974. From memory he was 9 over for the week and finished 3rd.

Chris Kane

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 05:34:27 AM »
"Get a picture of me going out the gate because you won't ever see me coming back in again"

Trevino on Royal Melbourne. 1974. From memory he was 9 over for the week and finished 3rd.


Was that the same week that Nicklaus called it a good members course?

Tom_Doak

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 08:35:12 AM »
"Get a picture of me going out the gate because you won't ever see me coming back in again"

Trevino on Royal Melbourne. 1974. From memory he was 9 over for the week and finished 3rd.


Was that the same week that Nicklaus called it a good members course?


No, that was at the Bicentennial Golf Classic in 1988.  Ben Crenshaw was there, too, and had to help walk back what Jack had said, that he meant it in the best possible way.

JESII

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 09:03:03 AM »
Do we think the 16th would have worked if the guys were hitting balata balls and curving their 6 irons a little bit right to left?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2021, 03:01:40 PM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.


Number 1 before


Number 1 after


« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 03:04:42 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2021, 05:26:45 PM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.



No time for "art" with that construction schedule!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2021, 05:28:57 PM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.



No time for "art" with that construction schedule!


He said the course was "playable" the end of October. Pretty quick.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2021, 05:32:13 PM »
I noticed the simpler bunkers.  Visually blah.  I can't believe MF has the same cost problems of municipal courses, and needs to simplify the bunker shapes to get machine mowers around them.  It's probably trying to look a bit more like Augusta where everything, even bunker edges should be "perfect?"


This is Jack's last bite at the apple, in his words, so we have to believe it reflects his state of thinking after X years in the biz.


Strategically, the hole is an improvement.  4 bunkers around the green is just hit and hope, or hit safely for the middle.  With one bunker left, and an expanded fw to the right, on the first iron shot of the day, it may tempt players to be a bit too safe?  The photo is from a long way away, but it appears the middle of the green drains into the sand bunker, meaning anything left of center may have a chance to roll in. 


At least, the tour pros I know seem to think that offering a bailout vs. a hazard does affect their strategy.  Since he's doing this primarily with tour players in mind, maybe that makes sense.


It might also have something to do with tournament traffic patterns so close to the clubhouse, but that is just a guess.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Schott

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2021, 06:21:47 PM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.


Number 1 before


Number 1 after

The right side bunker reminds me of Casper the Friendly Ghost.

David_Tepper

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2021, 12:34:09 AM »
21-minute youtube video on Nicklaus redesigning Muirfield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As9b1B5Z1tQ


 

Jeff Schley

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2021, 07:21:22 AM »
Nice video coverage and graphics. So basically he changed something of note on every hole except 12 & 14.

BTW anyone have any idea what this cost? Tough year for the assessment perhaps.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Carl Rogers

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2021, 08:48:19 AM »
16 holes at $1 million each?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Kalen Braley

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
21-minute youtube video on Nicklaus redesigning Muirfield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As9b1B5Z1tQ


May catch flack for this, but oh well.  Was I the only one who found that video nauseating?  I turned it off about 5 minutes in with all the "taking one more bit out of the apple" talk and other vomit worthy inducing comments comparing it to the Mona Lisa, etc. It was almost as bad as hearing the hushed tones and reverence of a Masters telecast. Perhaps just mute it to finish watching?  ;)

Mike_Trenham

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2021, 03:32:47 PM »
21-minute youtube video on Nicklaus redesigning Muirfield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As9b1B5Z1tQ


May catch flack for this, but oh well.  Was I the only one who found that video nauseating?  I turned it off about 5 minutes in with all the "taking one more bit out of the apple" talk and other vomit worthy inducing comments comparing it to the Mona Lisa, etc. It was almost as bad as hearing the hushed tones and reverence of a Masters telecast. Perhaps just mute it to finish watching?  ;)


I lasted until “nearly 153 yards were added”, I would have been okay with nearly 155 yards were added.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Carl Rogers

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2021, 05:36:22 PM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.



No time for "art" with that construction schedule!
If the goal is to defend par, forget all the bunkers, and just go with 6" rough.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff Schley

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2021, 09:07:06 AM »
I cannot speak to the quality of the renovation, but I can say that I am not enamoured with the look of the bunkers. They seem to lack much artistic value.



No time for "art" with that construction schedule!
If the goal is to defend par, forget all the bunkers, and just go with 6" rough.
Or just not have fairways while they are at it. Hit and gouge.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: CBS: Redesigning Muirfield Village - on now
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2021, 10:06:37 AM »
21-minute youtube video on Nicklaus redesigning Muirfield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As9b1B5Z1tQ


May catch flack for this, but oh well.  Was I the only one who found that video nauseating?  I turned it off about 5 minutes in with all the "taking one more bit out of the apple" talk and other vomit worthy inducing comments comparing it to the Mona Lisa, etc. It was almost as bad as hearing the hushed tones and reverence of a Masters telecast. Perhaps just mute it to finish watching?  ;)


I lasted until “nearly 153 yards were added”, I would have been okay with nearly 155 yards were added.


Tough crowd, tough crowd.  You get a chance to hear JN talk about his architectural thoughts, and trash the whole idea.  This is a gca board, not a grammar teacher class, or newscasting 101 in college, LOL.  As I said earlier, on some holes he gave a specific reason for changes, on a few others, I was frustrated by him saying he thought something would be nice.  Maybe he was rushing a bit due to time limits, but that was the only thing that frustrated me a bit.

As an aside, why is it bad for JN to do that, but great when Ross did it at Pinehurst?
Maybe I'll give him a call.  I know Jack well enough that when I call, his secretary always returns my call within the day.......
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 10:21:19 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach