If you could design a long par three to play everyday?

[Tommy Williamsen]

As a follow up to TD’s designing a short par three; if you could design a long par three, 210 plus that you could play everyday, what existing hole would inspire you?
We probably won’t have an ocean so Cypress Point 16 is unlikely.
Five at PV might just be too difficult.
4 at Sebonack a wonderful hole but more than I can handle from the back tee (or even an up tee).
Royal County Down 4 is beauty and beast that could be copied, without the gorse.
17 at Merion is one of the more underrated long par threes. It rarely gets mentioned.

But I think I’ll go with 8 at Oakmont. I don’t mean the 290 yarder they played at the Open, but the 220+ yarder that someone like me could even play. It has the great Sahara bunker down the left but plenty of fairway short of the green. It has two different angles into the green depending on the length you want to play.
The first hole at Berkshire Blue is a rude opener but wonderful hole to copy as well.

[Michael Felton]

This is an interesting question. I love long par threes. The course I played at when I was at university had 5 par threes and 3 of them were 200+. One was fairly mediocre, one was pretty good across a valley and the other one (the 9th) was one of the most challenging and wonderful holes I've ever played. This is at Brancepeth Castle in Durham.


Other contenders - the 13th at the Addington. It doesn't happen very often, but hitting your tee shot and seeing it land on the green is one of life's pleasures.


I also really like 14 at Deal and 11 at RSG. Both are pretty long and both require a really good shot to put it on the green. I think the general trend with the holes I like is you need the right landforms to make them really work. You couldn't build any of the non-links course ones without having the right land around you. RCP and RSG are both on relatively flat land, but both have raised greens that are above at least some of the surrounding grade.

[Mark Kiely]

Something like 6 at Rustic Canyon comes to mind where there are different routes that can be taken to reach the same spot due to surrounds and green contours.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Something like 6 at Rustic Canyon comes to mind where there are different routes that can be taken to reach the same spot due to surrounds and green contours.

I hadn't thought of that one, but it is a wonderful par three I could play all the time and be happy. It has an all world green.

[Phil Burr]

I’m on a Thompson kick so I’ll offer a quartet of Canadian par 3s;


#9 at Jasper
#4 at Banff Springs (Thompson)
#12 at Highlands Links
#8 at St. George’s


I think long par 3s offer limitless potential for the golfer’s hopes/expectations/anticipation as the ball is on its way to the target.  At Jasper & Banff, the anticipation builds as the ball hangs in the air for a seeming eternity as it drops towards its target.  At St. George’s, the hope is that the contours around the green have conspired to create a favorable outcome whose outcome is generally unseen from the tee.  As for Highlands, it’s just so damn pretty.  Every hole is in such an absolutely idyllic setting that walking the property is worth the price of admission.  And the golf is pretty excellent too!

[Thomas Dai]

What’s the yardage range to be that relates to a par-3?
I appreciate that there is supposed to be a standard stipulation for par-3’s-4’s-5’s but with some folks hitting their tee shots circa 350 yds a 250 yd par-3 isn’t that long for some anymore and yet there are some players who can barely hit it circa 75 yds.
For example, once upon a time the 16th at Carnoustie was fearsome ... Watson apparently made five bogies there in winning The Open in 1975 and only Nicklaus with a Driver is alleged to have reached the green in one particular round in 1968.
Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

For example, once upon a time the 16th at Carnoustie was fearsome ... Watson apparently made five bogies there in winning The Open in 1975 and only Nicklaus with a Driver is alleged to have reached the green in one particular round in 1968.
Atb

16 still scares me, but it is eminently fair if for players like me who can't fly it all the way.

[Tom_Doak]

For example, once upon a time the 16th at Carnoustie was fearsome ... Watson apparently made five bogies there in winning The Open in 1975 and only Nicklaus with a Driver is alleged to have reached the green in one particular round in 1968.

Once upon a time??  That hole is still a beast.  If you wanted a very challenging par-3 that would be a good choice.


Not yet named is the 6th hole at West Sussex -- a dogleg reminiscent of the 16th at Cypress Point, but featuring a small pond rather than a vast ocean to play around.  It is not a full carry to the green, but if you miss the green to either side, you'll wish you had laid up instead.

[Peter Pallotta]

It may still be there, though I haven't played it in 2+ decades -- on a public course northeast of Toronto called Westview, designed by the landowner & amateur architect 'Pops' Nesbitt: a 225-230 yard Par 3 that was vaguely a reverse redan, but the charm of it for me was that it was wide-open, i.e. it felt like the [elevated] green sat at the end of a wide [par 4 type] fairway, with no trees or shrubs or water around it or anywhere near it, just short grass of various lengths. It was daunting but inviting, and back then with some home-cooked swing I could it it farther than today, and I remember always using the first generation taylormade 2 hybrid, steel shafted and 18 degrees. But because of the setting, I saw a range of golfers comfortable hitting a range of clubs, from hooded/hooked 4 irons to 5 woods to 3 woods...and whether you hit the green or not, the adventure and fun was just beginning. 

[Thomas Dai]

16 at Carnoustie a beast with persimmon, steel shafts and balata. I can accept that. A beast with a 460cc headed titanium/graphite/composite head and longer, lighter weight shafted Driver and a modern ball, not convinced. Push the tee back another 100 yds (or rollback the ball a bunch) and maybe it’d be a beast for elite male players once again. Great hole, great course, even if less challenging than it once was.
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Interesting question, and one most gca's probably think about on their down time.


Not sure I have my "long par 3 philosophy" down to a tee yet, but I have a few favorites among my designs.


I like the 4th at the Quarry - 261 yards from an elevated tee (middle tees much shorter) with a small green, liberty bell shaped (planned on paper right after 9/11), wide open in front, bunkered to sides and back.  In other words, you bust a 3 wood or driver, but can roll it up on the green.


Of course, perhaps the best long par 3 is really just a short par 4 with an option to drive the green (like 16 at CPC almost was)


One theory of long par 3 holes is that it's the only place you can really test the long hitters, and since shorter hitters are less likely to reach the green (even if the second and third tees are 230 and 200 on a hole this length) that it's a good place for a smaller than usual green that doesn't affect average players too much.  (The wide open front allows a fairly straightforward pitch.  If we really wanted to adapt it to everyday play by shorter hitters, perhaps much of the area surrounding the green could be fw cut chipping areas, so a small green with a big gentle miss area.)  I think C and C have one of those on their Bandon course.  16?


I'm pretty well convinced that the CBM Redan and especially the Biarittz templates probably work better on par 4 or 5 holes, as well as the Ross reverse slope green at White Bear Yacht Club.  I also doubt they are good water holes, in general, even with CP16 proving me wrong.  (again, no ocean to compensate for difficulty) 


But I have built a few 200+ yard Redan par 3 holes.  If those work, it would be on a long par 3, providing enough area out front to bounce it short and roll it on (any shorter, and good players will simply play more spin on an aerial shot)  The longer the better, and if they play straight downwind, it gives more incentive to roll one up rather than try to stick the shot for them.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff 4 at the Quarry is driver or three wood from the blue tees for me, and a driver for my wife from the front tees. The little rise in front of the green will kill a shot that isn't going at a good pace but I like it that it gives me the option to run it on. Fun hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff 4 at the Quarry is driver or three wood from the blue tees for me, and a driver for my wife from the front tees. The little rise in front of the green will kill a shot that isn't going at a good pace but I like it that it gives me the option to run it on. Fun hole.

You know, some people here critique me for worrying about details, but I do believe that converting the design goal to an actual % of the slope is what makes things work.  I know it rises up, certainly, 5% or less, which is about as little as I put in front of greens to move drainage fast enough to keep it somewhat dry and firm.  That area was really flat, and not much vertical elevation to the drainage outlet.   


And, if it's reasonable, it should allow the roll up.  We can't provide a varying slope that will kill hot drives, and allow weak ones to roll out further, LOL.

[Tom_Doak]

One theory of long par 3 holes is that it's the only place you can really test the long hitters, and since shorter hitters are less likely to reach the green (even if the second and third tees are 230 and 200 on a hole this length) that it's a good place for a smaller than usual green that doesn't affect average players too much.  (The wide open front allows a fairly straightforward pitch.  If we really wanted to adapt it to everyday play by shorter hitters, perhaps much of the area surrounding the green could be fw cut chipping areas, so a small green with a big gentle miss area.)  I think C and C have one of those on their Bandon course.  16?


I'm pretty well convinced that the CBM Redan and especially the Biarittz templates probably work better on par 4 or 5 holes, as well as the Ross reverse slope green at White Bear Yacht Club. 

That's the 12th at Bandon Trails, and yes, it's a really good one.


Also, the "Ross reverse slope green" at WBYC is more likely William Watson's, which makes sense, because you'd think Ross would have built that green again somewhere if he'd actually thought of it himself.

[Jeff_Brauer]

So Ross didn't do the 14th at Oakland Hills?

[Tom_Doak]

So Ross didn't do the 14th at Oakland Hills?

Hmm, good point.  I hadn't thought of that as being like 12 at WBYC because it's such a long par-4 that it's hard to play to one side for a better angle at the features.

[Thomas Dai]

Mackenzie's famous Gibraltar hole was I believe 140 yds from its furthest back tee when built it in 1908.
I wonder what club elite players would have used to cover that distance back then and what equivalent distance a similar hole built now would need to be if it were played by a modern day elite player with a modern era ball and modern era club of the same generic type and loft as 113 years ago?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Mackenzie's famous Gibraltar hole was I believe 140 yds from its furthest back tee when built it in 1908.
I wonder what club elite players would have used to cover that distance back then and what equivalent distance a similar hole built now would need to be if it were played by a modern day elite player with a modern era ball and modern era club of the same generic type and loft as 113 years ago?

There is really no comparison.  Even if we were to say the answer is 240 yards, today's best players can hit that shot much higher than anyone could have in 1908, so it will land much softer even though it's coming in from further away.


But, by even saying that we are subscribing to the view that golf holes are designed for the best players, which was probably not true of MacKenzie's line of thought.

[Rob Marshall]

3rd hole on Oak Hill East is pretty good. The renovation softened the slope short of the green.

[Jim Hoak]

#9 at Yale has to be a prime contender.

[Carl Rogers]

No. 13 at Mid Pines .... maybe not long enough, but accepts the run up


Or No. 5 at Pine Needles, very hard hole


Initial thought was No. 12 at Bandon Trails, very fair hole

[archie_struthers]

 

You said design not list , so here goes. It would be a redo for me.
The hole we built at Twisted Dune (#3)  is a really long par three ....260 from back    where if you tear up the green and  take all the dirt out of there to make it seriously downhill it could be so fun. I.m thinking a punch bowl green that slopes front to back for sure. Would build it with turbo boosters in the fairway from 150 yards to the green so anyone could roll it on to the surface . Might put a couple center-line pot  bunkers in the fairway so shorter hitters would have to have it on the right line to run it on. But they could definitely land it way short and get there. If you fly it all the way to the green it better be the right height or over it goes, NOW that would be way cool!
 

If I hit the lottery or make a big deal somewhere I intend to ask Eric Bergstol if I can go back and fix it one winter.

[Carl Rogers]

Ok,
Multiple tee locations from different angles. 
Open run up shots from the forward tees.  Green slopes predominantly back to front.  Straight tee shot presents a possible 3.


Back tee from a different angle presents a 240 yard carry over a Swale to a smaller target.

[Padraig Dooley]

Calamity at Portrush, a golfer doesn't and wouldn't tire of trying to figure it out in all conditions.

[Michael Felton]

I know I already mentioned RSG, but it occurs to me that the 3rd is a really good long par 3 too. The bank on the right, which can work as a kickplate to kick your ball back down onto the green if you miss it a little right, but if you miss it a bit more to the right it means you're in a really tough spot. Also joke hard if the wind blows.