[Tom_Doak]

Construction experience is important.  Killian and Nugent sent each of us out to run a few jobs, and I sent every associate I had out in the field to direct or at least supervise daily, a big construction project.  I let go a few who wouldn't even commit to 6 months of the construction lifestyle.  There is no doubt, it takes a special type of person to commit to a career in shaping, and to a lesser extend, and depending on success, even being a gca.

This is the most important comment in the thread, I think.  Not everyone has to spend 300 days a year on the road, but if you aren't ready to put up with spending about half your life on the road, you are going to have a hard time succeeding in any aspect of golf course design and construction.  It used to be that some architects could stay busy within 100-200 miles of home, but the modern marketing of courses by the architect's name plus the ease of travel have really changed that -- not many clients are keen to hire the guy who designed half the other courses in town.


It's possible that technology and sustainability may change this -- I'm now getting some first hand experience into what you can build from a computerized grading plan, and of course it's currently much harder to pop over to Europe or Asia to see how construction is progressing.  Perhaps my thought of having trained associates in different parts of the globe will work out after all -- if only I can convince the clients that they don't need to see so much of me.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TD,


Yes, construction experience is important.  I think every young architect runs into a construction guy who tells them their plans may be pretty, but not practical.  (That happens with young building architects, too, in my experience.)  You have to know what is buildable and what is not.  Even with 40+ years of experience, I occasionally get "caught."  I proposed pushing a par 5 lake out in the pond to tighten the target, and the Owner, of all people, but with construction experience asked if we could push it halfway out and excavate in front to make it easier to build.  Of course, duh!


As to technology, I have used it (probably not a trendsetter) and continue to do so.  The first time I saw my grading plans staked out by GPS, and I could tell from the stakes cut and fill marks that my tee could easily be lowered I was sold on it's potential value.  Or, getting a site photo emailed to me, using Photoshop or similar to skecth what I wanted it to look like in 3D, and sending it back.  Most people who can visualize anything before it exists (that kid in the movie who saw dead people probably excepted) are visual learners.  I can explain to shapers in words all day long, and they don't get it.  Not all shapers understand grading plans, and ask if I can just highlight the swales and ridges.  Now that it is easy to produce 3D plans off of computer drafted green details, handing them that, very similar to gca's like the Jones, who did hand sketches for shapers, probably helps them visualize things.

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff B,

The construction superintendent faces similar opportunities and challenges.  I remember watching a fairway being sprigged at Tangle Ridge, #10 I think, and just after they finished, a pop-up thunderstorm washed all the work away.  Sitting in the trailer with the supt., he was visibly upset as the project was a bit behind schedule already.  But what was really bothering him was that his marriage had just fallen apart and his wife in west Texas was leaving with the kids.  Over the next half-an-hour or so he related how often he had to leave his family behind, how little time he had to spend with them between jobs, and how progressively harder his career had become over the years.  The same probably applied to designers at one time when the jobs paid relatively little and one had to be always hustling business just to survive.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

I was talking about shapers and this thread with my playing partner yesterday who was curious how many weeks/days does a shaper stay at a given site. I assume that there is no normal number, but what is the general range?


Ira

If you are building USGA or other sand based greens, the general rule is to have the guy who shaped the subgrade around when top mix is brought in.  Whether their memory is good enough to replicate the shaping 12" up is questionable.  But, having seen the subgrade, and created it, most think they take more care putting the mix on their creations.  So, at least the primary green shaper (s) stay on the job for the duration until fine grading is complete.  That might be 6 months for 18 holes, 4 months for 9, or a few weeks for a just a couple of greens.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff B,

The construction superintendent faces similar opportunities and challenges.  I remember watching a fairway being sprigged at Tangle Ridge, #10 I think, and just after they finished, a pop-up thunderstorm washed all the work away.  Sitting in the trailer with the supt., he was visibly upset as the project was a bit behind schedule already.  But what was really bothering him was that his marriage had just fallen apart and his wife in west Texas was leaving with the kids.  Over the next half-an-hour or so he related how often he had to leave his family behind, how little time he had to spend with them between jobs, and how progressively harder his career had become over the years.  The same probably applied to designers at one time when the jobs paid relatively little and one had to be always hustling business just to survive.

Lou:


Doesn't always work out that way.  I'm divorced and remarried, but all of the guys who have been my senior associates and main shapers [even going back to Gil] are still happily married to their original partners.  Likewise, Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw are both divorced and remarried, but I think their crew guys have done okay.  I think by keeping the same guys busy for years [and letting them commute back and forth to home] we have made their lifestyles more stable.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,


TR went through a few superintendents, but thanks to Wadsworth's tremendous depth, finished okay.  The first super got fired when their regional guy noticed some absences and trailed him one day to his appt at "Hair Club For Men."  The replacement was a good guy, but I think he got out of the biz after that, or at least took a regional job.


TD is right that life happens all ways, but I do think that traveling type jobs are statistically harder on marriages.  It also takes a special type of woman to be the wife of the special kind of guy who travels to do golf course construction.  I think lawyer's wives have an old joke about their husbands telling them they will spend more time with the family after this big case is over....but there is always another case.  Of course, in some cases, the time apart tends to save the marriage rather than tear it apart......


But, I agree with Tom, some companies value their employees welfare and sanity nicely, and some could do far better.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


One of my most vivid memories of this was when Alice Dye told me and John Harbottle, "If you get married, you're useless to us."


She could say that because we were not direct employees of the Dyes, and I appreciated that she was just being dead honest with us about it.  When I worked for Pete, there were two times where I got a call to drop what I was doing and move across the country, tomorrow, which I could not have done had I been in a relationship.


Which meant that the Dyes could not rely on having long-term employees, but Pete was fine with that, and happy to train new shapers on a rotating basis.  Occasionally, as for Lee Schmidt or Bobby Weed, they managed to get a favorite employee set up with a big client for whom they would do multiple projects.  But for the rest of us, the handwriting was on the wall to learn as much as we could, and when we wanted to have a life for ourselves, we'd have to sink or swim on our own.

[Ira Fishman]

Here is the part I am having a difficult time to get my brain wrapped around: a shaper spends months/weeks away from their family, but then does not get to play the course? I get that it is how he or she makes a living, but I cannot imagine how one can help create something without seeing the final result. Shouldn’t the developer or architect at least invite them once?


Ira

[Jaeger Kovich]

Ira - to your original question[/size]
What is it like to pick up and spend extended time in new locations where one probably does not know anyone?[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]This has generally been one of the best parts of the job. I've had the opportunity to travel around the country and world. Whether it is the middle of nowhere USA (Nebraska, Streamsong, Mississippi), Internationally (France, China, Thailand)  or to a dozen or so of the games most historic clubs it is the people you meet and places you get to experience along the way are what you generally remember the most... Also you remember and miss the food!
[/size]
[/size]I've almost always known at least one person wherever I was going. If I didn't I at least knew of one of the guys/gals and the opportunity to work with that person is prob why I was heading to that job.
[/size]
[/size]
[/size][/color]
[/size] And often they are in remote places where people show up only after the work is done and the shapers have departed. Do they even get to play the finished course?[/color][/size]


You have to love the process and work it takes to build a golf course. One of my favorite sayings the last few years is "Make love to the dirt." You just do the best you can and try to work the soil till you are happy with it, down to the fractions of an inch in places, and then you walk away just as the grass goes down. We don't own the course, the work isn't ours, even though we feel like it is. The odds are you wont get back to see it/play it, at least anytime soon. And if you do, does it look and play exactly like you hoped it would? Not always. So you just hope for the best, and be incredibly happy when it all comes together, but you def don't live for those moments... (luckily a lot of the reno/resto work I've done either on my own the last few years or w Gil is pretty close to my home so I do get back to some of those on occasion and they are looked after by some outstanding superintendents, but even then, I haven't played the creek since it re-opened 3-4 years ago and I live 50 min away!)[/size]

[Tom_Doak]

Here is the part I am having a difficult time to get my brain wrapped around: a shaper spends months/weeks away from their family, but then does not get to play the course? I get that it is how he or she makes a living, but I cannot imagine how one can help create something without seeing the final result. Shouldn’t the developer or architect at least invite them once?

Ira:


Like everything, it depends on the relationships.  Most of my crew are welcome to get back to the courses they've worked on without me having to call in a favor, but obviously places like Sebonack or Tara Iti are more restrictive about it than others -- just as they are toward golfers at large.


But, not all shapers are golfers!  I've told this story before, but years ago when I was building Lost Dunes, the shapers were from Landscapes Unlimited, while my own guys were busy at Riverfront and Apache Stronghold.  There was one older guy who was just over-shaping some mounds, like he didn't understand that they would have long grasses on them, so the shapes didn't need to provide the contrast by themselves.  I asked him if he had gone back to see some of the courses he had worked on, and he said no, he had never seen any of those courses with grass on them!!!


When the shapers are more of the contracted, hit-and-run guys, it's probably hard for them to go back to a lot of courses unless they have kept in touch with the superintendent or someone from the project.  The guys in the pro shop are not around during construction, so they would never know who did what.

[Jaeger Kovich]

One of my most vivid memories of this was when Alice Dye told me and John Harbottle, "If you get married, you're useless to us."

Well I know 7 shapers who work for you, gil, bill/ben or on their own that got married within the last 2 years and about half of them either have an infant or are expecting, so I guess we'll see how this effects the courses that are being built in the 2020's!!!

[Tom_Doak]

One of my most vivid memories of this was when Alice Dye told me and John Harbottle, "If you get married, you're useless to us."

Well I know 7 shapers who work for you, gil, bill/ben or on their own that got married within the last 2 years and about half of them either have an infant or are expecting, so I guess we'll see how this effects the courses that are being built in the 2020's!!!

Well, luckily for all of you, I realized I couldn't run my business the same way Pete and Alice did, if I was going to rely on associates to help make the courses better.  But they are all about to find out how hard the work/life balance really is.  Most, at least, have wives who have gotten to know them under similar conditions and hopefully know what's reasonable to expect.

[Jaeger Kovich]

P.S.  Best picture winner "Nomadland" was a fascinating watch from my perspective.  It offered a pensive and subtle counter-view to the highly inter-connected society we live in, but that's a whole nother' thing.

Interesting - I dont consider myself a nomad or think of what I do as counter culture

[Jaeger Kovich]

I know that Joe H likes listening to jazz, and the recent posts by Don and Jeff made me think of this:


 I built my first approved bunker while listening to Miles Davis, Kinda Blue, but there is no way you'll find me listening to that anymore. I change what I'm listening to pending the day and type of features I'm working on. I'm just as happy listening to a podcast, sports talk radio as I am rocking out to Zeppelin or Jimmy Hendrix

That if I were hiring or working with shapers, I'd want people who were complete musicians, not just/either/only 'star soloists' or 'unobtrusive accompanists".


Yeah, you def want a bit of both if the project is big enough.

In other words, I'd want people who could both be supportive of the collective effort and independently creative with their specific task/assignment.

I'd look as much for temperament as for talent: the temperament to willingly and enthusiastically 'follow' but also to 'lead' in a straightforward and uncomplicated way, as the situation required.


 Eh, sometimes you need someone who knows how to zig when the project is zagging. Lead for sure. Teach even more so,  but you also need guys  that just show up every day and push/dig... I wouldn't type cast because you really just need people that can help make the project better, add to the course, and ideally do it in a very efficient manner.

I think that type of personality is relatively rare, in any profession.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I was talking about shapers and this thread with my playing partner yesterday who was curious how many weeks/days does a shaper stay at a given site. I assume that there is no normal number, but what is the general range?


Ira

If you are building USGA or other sand based greens, the general rule is to have the guy who shaped the subgrade around when top mix is brought in.  Whether their memory is good enough to replicate the shaping 12" up is questionable.  But, having seen the subgrade, and created it, most think they take more care putting the mix on their creations.  So, at least the primary green shaper (s) stay on the job for the duration until fine grading is complete.  That might be 6 months for 18 holes, 4 months for 9, or a few weeks for a just a couple of greens.

JB - I think there is a big difference in having your general golf course contracting companies do the shaping and an independent shaper or shaper who works direct for the architect, and especially an architect that is the shaper. 

You dont need/want me to put the mix in most of the time, but I definitely want to finish the green before grassing. If the subgrade is right, and then you make sure the gravel layer is right, then the probe wont lie in the mix. You just gotta check it!

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  Best picture winner "Nomadland" was a fascinating watch from my perspective.  It offered a pensive and subtle counter-view to the highly inter-connected society we live in, but that's a whole nother' thing.

Interesting - I don't consider myself a nomad or think of what I do as counter culture

I admittedly went off the script there a bit.  Sounds like you guys have lives and homes to return to, as opposed to living out of a trailer or van, calling it home, and just driving from job to job in whimsical fashion.  Perhaps I'm just projecting as I've always wanted to sell everything I own and just hit the open road for a few years and explore.  But my wife wants no part of that and I guess i'm not ready to blow up 25 years of marriage just yet!

[Ira Fishman]

I am so glad that Jaeger saw this thread because he had a post several years ago that taught me so much as a still rank amateur which I remain to this day. The 12th hole at Mid Pines. Ross designed it. Kyle Franz restored it. But Jaeger informed me here that he shaped the bunker at the corner. It is a brilliant hole.


Ira

[Angela Moser]

Ira,


Yes, they are.  Couldn't live without them.  Of course, there are a few prima donnas (not many) that I couldn't live with, but too few too mention, as the song goes.  I got on a job and was told the main shaper was a bit of an ego.  I introduced myself, and said I had heard great things about him.  He beamed.  Then I followed up, "I hear you are the best ladies tee shaper in the business!"  He frowned, but realized immediately I was joking, and we got along great.

 

[Angela Moser]

I know that Joe H likes listening to jazz, and the recent posts by Don and Jeff made me think of this:

That if I were hiring or working with shapers, I'd want people who were complete musicians, not just/either/only 'star soloists' or 'unobtrusive accompanists".

In other words, I'd want people who could both be supportive of the collective effort and independently creative with their specific task/assignment.

I'd look as much for temperament as for talent: the temperament to willingly and enthusiastically 'follow' but also to 'lead' in a straightforward and uncomplicated way, as the situation required.

I think that type of personality is relatively rare, in any profession.

Hey Peter,


It is funny that you are mentioning the musical, artistic side of our job. To me, there are so many connections. A great routing isn't just getting you practically from 1 to 18, but almost like a song with highs and lows, faster and slower passages, some dramatic views, some calming ones... I think you get where I am coming from. The architect is the conductor/composer putting the symphony together, steering you over the piece of ground.
As for the shaping part, I have been working with some of the greatest and most humble shapers out there, and we sometimes talk about turning up the volume.


A fact that is puzzling me is that I still remember the music/podcast/audiobook I have been listening to while building specific features. Apparently that is how my brain is wired. My music library went absolutely crazy since I started working on heavy equipment, but it is great to mix it up and get into your flow in however mood you are. One of the best-featured interviews on GCA is Kye Goalbys and his answer to GCA's best invention - the iPod. We are past the iPod, having everything always with us on our phones with endless music choices thanks to Spotify and other ways to spark your brain.


Best wishes,
Angela

[Niall C]

Is Jaeger the secret love-child of Pat Mucci ? I think we need to know.


Niall

[Quinn Thompson]

"life as a shaper" is exhausting, to answer your question.


I wish I had become a Teacher instead; anything...something with a backyard.


But, it's tough to quit the Circus.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Is Jaeger the secret love-child of Pat Mucci ? I think we need to know.


Niall

No... Unless its gonna get me a legacy membership at Garden City 

[Sean_A]

Is Jaeger the secret love-child of Pat Mucci ? I think we need to know.


Niall

😎


Ciao

[Quinn Thompson]

I remember meeting Jeff Bradley of Coore / Crenshaw - bunker building fame. I was 20, with a shovel in my hand and no plans, and he was out there in an excavator with headphones on and air drumming in between bucket scoops. This was at Shelter Harbor GC in little old Rhode Island. Safe to say, I was awestruck: people did this work for a living ?!?!


I remember on the 4th tee that summer, asking Jeff how he found his job. If you've never heard an Arkanas man chuckle, you won't forget it when it happens.


"I was in the wrong place at the wrong time," he said. To this day, its a vivd memory. Back then, I was confused.


I think the 'life of a shaper' is a lonely existence, and it was once carried out by lonely said men: Jeff, Dan Proctor, Dave Axland - old cowboys of old. The Originals.


I'm packing up now to go work on a golf course down in the Izu Peninsula of Japan. It's exciting in that I get to escape this apartment, but soon I'll remember that dirt is dirt, and work is work, and that Chicago is still a thousand miles away.

[Ryan Farrow]

I feel like I have been a nomad since leaving home for the desert many years ago. My first taste of the shaping lifestyle was at Rock Creek interning for Tom Doak and the Renaissance team, living on a cattle ranch with 4,5,6 other guys? After college, a potential shaping job for Gil Hanse fell through, then I turned down a job working at Clear Creek Tahoe with Coore & Crenshaw (Thanks James Duncan for talking me out of it?) Instead, I was off to China with Schmidt-Curley for 5 years, probably 90% of that time overseas, it was a mix of office work and trying to tell shapers what to do onsite, they didn't want to listen to a 22 year old (most of them, ok, almost all of them). I met my wife over there, then brought her back to the states at the same time China stopped almost all golf construction.


Somehow I managed to get back in the shaping world with C&C at Sand Valley. My wife has happily traveled with me to this day. Work slowed down a bit in 2018, I waited around until Spring not knowing if I had any work for the year and got a call to help out  Gil and Jim, that year, I spent about 6 weeks at Pinehurst #4, 3 months a Merion, 1 month at Southern Hills and about a month and half back home working at Oakmont with C&C. I found out my wife was pregnant while working at the Sheep Ranch, and now we are almost full circle going into my 2nd year working with James Duncan and C&C at Brambles.


I started shaping life on the road in 2020 with a baby when she was about 2 months old, Oakland Hills was our first stop during the peak of the first Covid wave and lockdown. We had to drive 5 hours back home to Pittsburgh for a 3 month checkup and vaccinations (out of state health insurance is not really an option). I did my best during the pandemic to keep myself and the family away from people so we all avoided the bug, including a 4 day drive across the country in early June. I'm looking forward to getting back home during the 2021 holidays to show the baby off to the family. To me that will be the hardest part of life on the road with the little one, so much of her early years will be missed by friends and family until we decide to finally settle down somewhere, wherever and whenever that may be.

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