This Ocean Course - Such Ambivalence

[V. Kmetz]

I'm enjoying the competition and the challenges of the architecture/environment which the broadcast is well describing; and the bottom line is its an able championship course... for watching these guys on TV, but not as a place to go and tackle myself.


Perhaps I am not fascinated by championship courses of modern ilk as I am of those of previous eras or perhaps it the SO MANY pieces of previous integrity, following on the 2019 new rules regime, that have had to be specialized for this course... sand/bunker/penalty areas, raking things smooth, range finders...or the particulars of this course's deficits to what I thought were points of well-held critique...fraught with hazard and penalty, tee to green walks, curated trees, and overdone closely mown areas, building cost, earth moving, environmental sustainability...whichever of these, this architecture lights few lanterns for me unless perhaps its the future consensus on the viability of designed waste areas.


Hearing that story of how #17 became faux pond frontage as opposed to sand (basically at Alice Dye's late stage whim, the tale went Friday), basically tells me anything the Dye name produces will be accepted and glorified as unerring...too big to fail. Somehow I know that if a Fazio or Jones name was the signatory, different story, and there would be greater disdain.


I don't know where it ranks on the big lists, the Guide or your own, but there's got to be at least 200 courses you genuinely want to play and/or see for yourself before this one, no?  I mean that's still pretty high, given the number of fun memorable courses and the stretch to say that you'll play even 100 of your favorites, but a Top 50/100 course?  How?

[John Kavanaugh]

I just want to be happy for 143 more minutes.

[V. Kmetz]

I'm rooting for you

[Tommy Williamsen]

I just want to be happy for 143 more minutes.

I just want to be happy IN 143 minutes. Until then too much pressure on my recliner.

[Jason Thurman]

Major risk/reward and scoring swings. This is about the perfect test for the pro game at the highest level, which exactly matches the design brief. The Dyes deserve more credit for nailing design briefs.


I'd probably rather play Harbour Town. But man, if I was playing well, I think I'd have an absolute blast from 6200 yards on The Ocean. Given unlimited time and budget, I'd play pretty much every Dye.

[John Kirk]

Hearing that story of how #17 became faux pond frontage as opposed to sand (basically at Alice Dye's late stage whim, the tale went Friday), basically tells me anything the Dye name produces will be accepted and glorified as unerring...too big to fail. Somehow I know that if a Fazio or Jones name was the signatory, different story, and there would be greater disdain.


I don't know where it ranks on the big lists, the Guide or your own, but there's got to be at least 200 courses you genuinely want to play and/or see for yourself before this one, no?  I mean that's still pretty high, given the number of fun memorable courses and the stretch to say that you'll play even 100 of your favorites, but a Top 50/100 course?  How?

V,


#17 does seem like bad course design with the pond, especially playing 15-20 mph downwind.  It looks just like the par 3s on the back nine at PGA National.  Pretty lame.  The leaders are just trying to find a place to land the ball safely.


This has been a wonderful big tournament, but like you, I wouldn't travel to play this one.  With that said, it's great to have a PGA Championship with pleasant temperatures and no weather delays.

[Mike Sweeney]

I am a Pete Dye contrarian. I never have seen the genius, and I am guessing that I have played 6-8 Pete Dye courses. TPC Sawgrass was probably the most note worthy, and I just did not "get it".


Bulle Rock, Pound Ridge, Disney - Osprey Ridge... they plowed it under for a Rees Jones course where Jaka now thinks he is a "SCRATCH". 

All that said, I am a huge fan of Kiawah Ocean Course. Sure, I will probably shoot a 102 real score from the regular tees, but what a venue.

Congrats to our friend Mike Whitaker, who is the #1 Champion of South Carolina Golf.

[Stewart Abramson]

 Osprey Ridge... they plowed it under for a Rees Jones course where Jaka now thinks he is a "SCRATCH". 

Osprey Ridge was a Tom Fazio course and was re-designed by Fazio as Tranquilo. The Dye course at Disney was Eagle Pines and it is NLE. The Rees Jones course located within WDW is Waldorf Astoria. Waldorf is not operated by Disney and is not near the same site as was Eagle Pines.

[Matt Kardash]

I think this week proves once again that Pete Dye designs the best championship layouts.
Besides Pinehurst, can anyone name another course where the green complexes were so challenging? I would say these green complexes gave the players more fits than even Augusta National.

[Greg Smith]

I thought this course was fantastic, and especially fantastic for its intended purpose -- which was to offer pushback to the assault of the pros.  For such a difficult and even harshly penal in spots design, Dye also made it beautiful.  I have no problem with what the Ocean Course is.


However, I have absolutely no shot at playing the game of golf on it -- it would be completely impossible to post a score, ANY score.


A golf course such as Oakmont -- even under US Open conditions -- I'd have a decent chance of finishing.  No real forced carries, and if I was playing well, keeping it mostly on or near the short grass, I'd make it around without a lost ball.  I'm still a good putter, so I might even post a survival-type score somewhere around 100.  That qualifies as golf in my book.


Does that make Oakmont better for golf?  Probably.  But even so there's a place for "professional only" fields of play in the game.  The Ocean Course is one of those, and a jolly good example it is.


All of this highlights just how bifurcated the game really is.  The skill gulf between the pros and us is wayyyyyyyy wider than we even thought.  I really think we should have two design disciplines -- "golf" architecture and "competition" architecture. 

[Kalen Braley]

I must admit, i'm a bit mixed on the American TOC.  On one hand its certainly a brutal beast that would no doubt slap me silly, even from the women's tees.  And i'm not against difficult courses per se, Pine Valley, Oakmont, Bethpage Black, Augusta are certainly very tough too, but I have no doubt they would be a blast to play.  But TOC looks just so damn relentless in what it asks of you. And I'm not sure anyone does more to impose angles on you than Pete, and they certainly mattered this week even for the worlds best.

The location however has gotta be worth some big points thou.  The crashing waves, the dunes, the wind, the wildlife, the rawness of the environs just off the fairways, that's all appealing.  Then throw in a ton of elasticity where its almost a different course based on the wind direction and intensity.

However, in the context of this tournament it wasn't just the features testing these guys.  Raw brutal length was certainly the dominant factor with 6 brutal par 4s near or over 500 yards, 3 of the pars 3 playing 200+ yards (and the other just short of 200), not to mention the  long and punishing par 5s...all at sea-level.  #1 may be the only breather hole on the course as even #3 has that small and high perched green to deal with.

Overall, I think its a course i'd love to spend half a day walking around and seeing stuff up close over playing it...

[Ronald Montesano]

It is THE BEST COURSE to manage technology and fitness. It combines length, trickery, flexible set-up, and fickle ocean breezes like no other. I hope that it never gets the botox that TPC gets annually. It is as it was in 1991, and as it shall continue to be.

[Carl Rogers]

Exhibit 1 proving bifircation in the game.  I would guess that max handicap that could play it would a 2.  Torture for the rest of us.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I think some people are way overstating the "unplayability" of this golf course!   Is it a tough (and in that respect great for championship level purpose) test of golf from all the way back (or anywhere near that yardage).  Hell yes it is!   But if you choose the right set of tees is it unplayable, not even close!   


Living here in SC, I have had the good fortune to pay TOC several times over the last 25 years.  Varying in handicap from probably 16 to a low of about 3, and back to about a 7 the last time I played it.   Over those years has it kicked my butt several times, heck yes!   But I also recall being a mid single digit handicap and playing basically tees that were the same yardage I would tend to play at any other course and have shot a couple of really good rounds for me.   Does it require you to concentrate on a lot of shots, yes! 


I don't think it is any harder for a high handicapper to shoot a number at TOC than say Oakmont, Winged Foot, Oakland Hills, Bethpage, any of the more "traditional" (in some peoples eyes) parkland venues were for me over the years, depending on wind conditions etc, but just inherently by design I disagree.   Narrow fairways, long lush rough, lightning fast greens give me as much or more difficulty than do any forced carries or Dye's use of angles.   I am sure everyones games are different and it might be a regional thing because long lush northern grass rough gives at least my game more difficulty than do a lie on sandy scrub, or pine needles.  It might be different for someone who plays on cool weather grass all the time.  I see people from up north complaining about Bermuda grass rough all the time when they come down here, and i have to chuckle because its the exact opposite for me.  To each his own...


I think to dismiss TOC as being "too hard" for the average player and only something a tour player can handle is just wrong.    At least from my perspective it is not any harder (or certainly unfair) than any other Major championship course if you play the right tees, and I think TOC is loads of fun, and a great course that everyone should try to play at least once if you never have.     Besides we in SC appreciate the tourism dollars...

[Sean_A]

I generally agree with Turboe. Sure, if the wind howls, forget it, Kiawah is not wide enough to accommodate anything but low capper play. But in reasonable wind from the right tees, a 10 can work around Kiawah very comfortably.

I can understand if folks don't care for the penal style, but that is the nature of the site. I ain't rushing to go back, but that has more to do with not really taking to the course and cost rather than anything to do with difficulty.


Ciao

[Matt Kardash]

By the way, I don't get all the talk about how this course is SO LONG. On Golf Channel they did an analysis and they basically acknowledged that 7800 yards today is about the same as 6900 yards in the 1960s. I don't think another would have said in 1968 that 6900 yards was too much golf course from the back tees.

I think we have become so accustomed to crazy length by tour pros that we are not used to a course that bites back, just a little. I have to say, it felt refreshing to see 3 and 4 irons hit into a few par 4s. What a welcome change from the driver wedge we see every week on tour these days! Also, par 5's hit in 3 shots! When was the last time we saw some of that!?

[Jason Thurman]

I'm Team Turboe.


On one hand, as a guy who's driven the ball erratically for most of my golfing life, it's not hard for me to imagine a sideways day on The Ocean that amounts to not much fun. And if that leads you to choose not to shell out a $465 greens fee as a consumer, I don't think that puts you in the wrong at all.


But to suggest that only a 2 handicap-or-better could enjoy this course? Well, I've known for a while that I'm a little less risk-averse than Carl, and this is just another example. I played with a 16 handicap buddy on Friday who kept saying things like "$465 is a lot of money, but watching the last couple days really makes me want to go back." He had a blast playing The Ocean. I feel like most of the guys I play with would.


And while one can easily observe The Ocean's tough greens and surrounds, some tight corridors on a few holes with punishing surrounds, and wind-prone location, I do think we need to be a little careful about drawing conclusions about its appeal to "average golfers" when watching the strongest field in golf tackle it from 7800 yards in a major. This weekend didn't really give me clue as to how it would play for my mother from 3000 yards shorter.

[John Kavanaugh]

You'd think that a course that just gave up a major championship to the oldest golfer of all time could catch a break on playability. It has to count for something unless the only thing we owe a debt of gratitude is modern technology. If there ever is a roll back that I hope Phil's championship gets an asterisk.

[Jason Topp]

I've played the course three times in a 24 person Ryder Cup type format where the group handicaps ranged from plus 1 to 25.  Everyone could get around this course without a problem and everyone loved the experience.  It takes a great design to accomplish that.


I think the only forced carry of any note from 6300 yards is on 17 and there I would guess that the hole played 150 yards.  It is a decent hole at that length.  There is a par 4 on the back with a diagonal carry but there is also plenty of bailout room and the required carry has to be less than 70 yards from the 6300 yard tees.[size=78%] [/size]


Nearly every shot on this course involves some sort of temptation.  Trouble occurs from being aggressive and falling short rather than simple punishment of errors.  There is a bailout on nearly every shot as Phil demonstrated so well when he turned for home with a lead and a wind pushing from right to left.  The same is true for any of us hitting the ball 100 yards shorter. 


The playing corridors are wide - 65-70 yards according to a yardage book I saw online before the event. 


The setting is beautiful and, for our September trip was enhanced by an ocean breeze when the rest of the island felt like being in an armpit. 


My only criticism would be that it feels a bit formulaic and artificial like all Dye courses feel.  That is aesthetics.  The course itself is fantastic.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The thing that struck me on TV is how formalized - simple shape, simple edges - the formal bunkers had become since I last saw the course.  Does anyone know anything about that?  They looked way out of place on that course to my eye.


I haven't played it in at least 20 years, but don't recall it being terribly unplayable.  I also recall it as the first course that gave us a discount on rounds because the greens had just been aerated.  Maybe they just weren't lightning fast that day.  Also, I had learned to play Pete Dye courses near my average score by never, and I mean never, taking the bait, and just playing for the bail out zones he provided, i.e. back left on 17.

[Ira Fishman]

Mr. Dye’s courses are having quite a year: the PGA and Ryder Cup plus of course the TPC.

[Jay Mickle]

As a 15 handicap I got around the course just fine on a day with little to no wind. I enjoyed the layout and strategic decisions required but was disappointed in the minimal contouring of the greens. I would like to give it another go and perhaps find the wind to play it as it was intended.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mr. Dye’s courses are having quite a year: the PGA and Ryder Cup plus of course the TPC.

Has he ever hosted the US Open and if not, why? Has to be intentional on someones part.

[Ira Fishman]

JK,


It is intentional in the sense that it has been a very long time since a course was selected as both a US Open venue and PGA/Ryder Cup venue. Mr. Dye's courses have aligned with the PGA/Ryder Cup probably all the way back to Oak Tree or Crooked Stick.


Ira

[Steve Lang]

   OAK TREE did host US Am and Sr US Open...


Only place to rest is in the grill, which was quite good as I remember from a couple Timber Cups