Anyone here play hickory golf?

[Peter Sayegh]

Thanks Jay

[Peter Flory]

[Tony Ristola]

That's the great thing about those old clubs. You often know the club they came from and the name of the original owner.

[Peter Flory]

That is definitely one of the fun parts about it.  I just got a couple clubs from Harold Sampson.  He was the first pro at Pebble Beach and one of the first American born professions.  He was also one of the last pros to resist steel shafted clubs.  So the clubs that I have are rare in that they have hickory shafts, but 99% of that model was made with steel (the Ogg-mented clubs).  These clubs were about 50 years ahead of their time and almost look like Ping Zings from the top. 

[BHoover]

Peter, what woods do you play in your hickory set? Vintage or replica?

[Peter Flory]

Peter, what woods do you play in your hickory set? Vintage or replica?

I started by playing all replicas and then transitioned to originals over a few year period when I found originals.  I now have a US Golf Co Brassie (left) and what I think is a Jack White spoon (right) with about 18 degrees.


This is a brassie iron, which is about 22 degrees and hits like a hybrid.


And this is my favorite club- it's a wood faced driving cleek with about 17 degrees loft from 1897.  It was made by Spalding and called a Cran Cleek.  The wood face is held in with screws from the back.  It's basically a perimeter weighted club and the purpose of the wood insert is so that the club isn't too heavy- so that all the weight can be on the outside.  This is the one club that I'd be tempted to put in my modern set because it just hits so well. 

[Thomas Dai]

Look back to see the future?
The diamond backed iron has come and gone a few times in the interim years and as Peter says the 'brassie iron' he pictures above is awfully hybrid looking.
Back to the future circa 1980-1990 era club and ball wise would be nice but we'd better not go there again through!

atb

[BHoover]

The quest to find the right set of clubs, but woods in particular, is one of the aspects of hickory golf that makes it interesting and challenging.

[Angela Moser]

How fitting this club is for your passion and the involvement in the Lido
If we ever meet, we must play a round with hickories!!!

[Angela Moser]

About 5-years ago I played an event. Was a blast. Bought a set of hickories last year... not the replica's, but the 100-year old stuff. Have played only one round since with modern equipment.


It's more fun. You have to think about where you want to go. The ball spins less... and the game becomes one of angles. The entrance to the green has meaning because you're often bouncing in shots.


Hit it into the rough, and you're hoping for a good lie, and even with a good lie you're not going to get the control or spin.


I hit hickories as far as the average golfer hits their modern gear, so it gives me an even better perspective of their game.


If you get the chance, give it a go. It's more fun than playing with bomb-and-gouge gear.
[/quote]

Hi Tony,
it is really weird/funny to me that we haven't met yet in person.
Let me know if you are up for a game in and around Munich.
All the best,
Angela

[Jamie Pyper]

I played a round with Randy Jensen, the eight time national hickory champion about 10 years ago and he let me try his hickories and Ive been hooked ever since. Not only does hickory play introduce new strategy to the game, but also opens doors to any of us who enjoy antiques and history. The best thrills I get from golf now are "occasionally" pulling off a hickory shot- such a different feel than conventional modern clubs. The best experiences I've had were on true links courses like Old MacDonald and Portrush, but play the forward tees with very low compression balls.
[/size]
[/size]My favorite clubs are a Tom Steward "Swilcan Pitcher" and a Tom Auchterlonie "DeLuxe" spoon. 

[Tony Ristola]

About 5-years ago I played an event. Was a blast. Bought a set of hickories last year... not the replica's, but the 100-year old stuff. Have played only one round since with modern equipment.


It's more fun. You have to think about where you want to go. The ball spins less... and the game becomes one of angles. The entrance to the green has meaning because you're often bouncing in shots.


Hit it into the rough, and you're hoping for a good lie, and even with a good lie you're not going to get the control or spin.


I hit hickories as far as the average golfer hits their modern gear, so it gives me an even better perspective of their game.


If you get the chance, give it a go. It's more fun than playing with bomb-and-gouge gear.
[/quote]

Hi Tony,
it is really weird/funny to me that we haven't met yet in person.
Let me know if you are up for a game in and around Munich.
All the best,
Angela

Yes... it's because I'm weird. 

[Tony Ristola]

Peter, what woods do you play in your hickory set? Vintage or replica?

I started by playing all replicas and then transitioned to originals over a few year period when I found originals.  I now have a US Golf Co Brassie (left) and what I think is a Jack White spoon (right) with about 18 degrees.


This is a brassie iron, which is about 22 degrees and hits like a hybrid.


And this is my favorite club- it's a wood faced driving cleek with about 17 degrees loft from 1897.  It was made by Spalding and called a Cran Cleek.  The wood face is held in with screws from the back.  It's basically a perimeter weighted club and the purpose of the wood insert is so that the club isn't too heavy- so that all the weight can be on the outside.  This is the one club that I'd be tempted to put in my modern set because it just hits so well. 

I'd read about the Cran Cleek, but had never seen a photo of one. That's pretty cool. Spalding had some innovative stuff a century ago.


Do you find a performance difference between the replica's and the original gear?

[Ben Hollerbach]

Do you find a performance difference between the replica's and the original gear?

I've been playing hickory for the last 11 years, with about 70% of my rounds over that time being hickory. My bag is almost completely original with a few reproduction thrown in at hard to find spots. I started with 5 clubs in my bag and have built it up from there, I currently carry 11 clubs, with only one of those 11 coming from the original 5. Nearly all of my irons at this point have had the shaft replaced as they were too soft of flex or broken during play. I've disassembled and worked on all of my clubs to build them into what I need to play well.


Original gear often needs a bit of tuning to become playable for you. Changing out the shaft and grip, adjusting the loft, filing the leading edge, adding weight, etc... all to bring the club up to be playable and to make your set feel more uniform.


With reproductions that is all managed for you. Reproductions represent the best designs of the era for modern conditions. Their shafts and swing weights are properly adjusted the lofts are balanced and the soles have an effective amount of bounce. From my experience a set of reproductions will be 2-3 shots easier per round than an average set of originals.


The hardest part of the club hunt is finding a good set of woods, serious players can go through a dozen before they find one that works for them Reproduction woods help to speed up that process immensely.

[Peter Flory]

Do you find a performance difference between the replica's and the original gear?

That is an interesting question.  The short answer is that I don't find any real difference- but that is after 5 years of finding the perfect clubs and dialing them in. 

If you had a month to assemble a set, you'd likely experience a very big difference because you'd have originals where the shafts vary, where leading edges would be too sharp, where the swing weights would be all over the map, etc. 

But now that I have clubs with great weighting and shapes, I'm convinced that I'm slightly better with them than I would be with replicas.  i.e. if I had to play for my life, I wouldn't switch back to replicas.  But part of that might be personal because I'm not a big divot taker and I find the lack of bounce on the irons to fit my swing.  As Ben mentioned, the replicas have much more bounce- so for someone with a higher angle of attack, they might find that extremely helpful. 

One other thing that I've noticed is that the raw forged heads of the originals really feel soft and pleasing.  Some clubs were chrome plated so that they wouldn't rust, and those feel much more clicky/ harsh.  I just send those off to get them de-chromed now whenever I get them.  The replicas are cast and you don't get that same feel.  The whole experience makes me want to get a set of modern forged irons with a raw finish. 

[BHoover]

The hardest part of the club hunt is finding a good set of woods, serious players can go through a dozen before they find one that works for them Reproduction woods help to speed up that process immensely.

I completely agree with this and have found that finding and getting used to the right set of woods has been the most challenging part of playing hickory golf. I have a few drivers and brassies sitting in my closet that, despite my best efforts, I just can’t play consistently.


I think it’s a lot easier to play original irons consistently than is the case with woods. I’ve resisted going the route of buying a replica driver, but if I ever get into entering tournaments, I probably would consider a Louisville Golf or Tad Moore driver.

[Paul Ashton]

So do most go hickory shaft in woods as well? Looks like steel shaft was introduced in the 20's. Interested in going down this road a bit, home course is 5,000 yards from the front tees, assume that is a good place to start?


What is the breakage rate on shafts if I buy a vintage set on somewhere like eBay (or open to other buying suggestions)?

[Peter Flory]

So do most go hickory shaft in woods as well? Looks like steel shaft was introduced in the 20's. Interested in going down this road a bit, home course is 5,000 yards from the front tees, assume that is a good place to start?

What is the breakage rate on shafts if I buy a vintage set on somewhere like eBay (or open to other buying suggestions)?

Breakage is surprisingly low.  Maybe 1 every year or 2 depending on your swing speed and the turf conditions.  It's important to get them repinned so that the heads are securely in place and so that the tips can be inspected for cracks. 

What is much more common than breaks are for the head to come a little loose (but the pin will hold it on).  But that is a very cheap and/or easy repair. 

The shafts on the woods are way less likely to break because the impact with the ground is so minimal.  If those break, it is usually because there was already a crack. 

Regarding original woods- there is a middle ground that some people go with.  The SoHG allows woods that were made pre-1935 to be retrofitted with hickory shafts, even if they were made with steel.  So Tad Moore and Louisville Golf convert a lot of those and that allows you get get a shaft that might fit your swing.  But overall, I would say that most hickory players have original irons and reproduction woods. 

[Tony Ristola]

So do most go hickory shaft in woods as well? Looks like steel shaft was introduced in the 20's. Interested in going down this road a bit, home course is 5,000 yards from the front tees, assume that is a good place to start?


What is the breakage rate on shafts if I buy a vintage set on somewhere like eBay (or open to other buying suggestions)?

If you're going to play hickory tournaments, then you need to use hickory shafted woods. Don't get suckered into pyratone shafts; they look like hickory but are coated steel to look like hickory.


5,000 yards is a great place to start. If I play from member's tees and they're over 6,000 yards, I usually joke on the tee asking if today is the US Open... or what?


You can get vintage clubs on eBay... and decent ones. Don't pay more than $50 a club. You really only need a spoon (3 wood) mid iron, mashie, mashie niblick, niblick and putter to start. There are sites online that provide info on clubs.


Here is a decent one to introduce you to manufacturers of the era. http://hickoryclubs.eu/


Breakage? I've had my set a year, and have broken the shaft on my mashie and driving iron. I've got Senior Tour swing speed. The mashie was rotten below the hosel, so it shouldn't really count.


Woods are the most finicky to find. Like the old days before metal heads hit the market... when it was a hunt to find a great driver and backup. I've been lucky, and haven't had to search much.

[Angela Moser]

About 5-years ago I played an event. Was a blast. Bought a set of hickories last year... not the replica's, but the 100-year old stuff. Have played only one round since with modern equipment.


It's more fun. You have to think about where you want to go. The ball spins less... and the game becomes one of angles. The entrance to the green has meaning because you're often bouncing in shots.


Hit it into the rough, and you're hoping for a good lie, and even with a good lie you're not going to get the control or spin.


I hit hickories as far as the average golfer hits their modern gear, so it gives me an even better perspective of their game.


If you get the chance, give it a go. It's more fun than playing with bomb-and-gouge gear.
[/quote]

Hi Tony,
it is really weird/funny to me that we haven't met yet in person.
Let me know if you are up for a game in and around Munich.
All the best,
Angela

Yes... it's because I'm weird. 

Well... I give you that, it is a weird answer to an invitation to play. 

[Thomas Dai]

I’ve not had any hickory shaft breakages but shafts can go out of shape and develop a slightly curved profile (which makes playability a wee be harder!).


As to course length, this is one of the great reasons to play hickories. The courses footprint is smaller, the time needed to play 18-holes is less yet the number of overall shots played in a round can be the same and all with greater challenge than with modern era equipment. No need for a ball rollback for hickory players!


Atb

[Jay Mickle]

I’ve not had any hickory shaft breakages but shafts can go out of shape and develop a slightly curved profile (which makes playability a wee be harder!).

You can straighten hickory shafts with persistence, some wedges and a heat gun. Check out YouTube. Additionally, either stand the clubs vertically or horizontally to reduce likelihood of warping.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I bought a set of clubs a few years ago - mainly Tom Stewart clubs.  I use them a couple of times per year.  I use the Srixon Soft Feel golf balls.  The guy I bought them with said the worst thing is to use range balls, so I try not to hit too many practice shots before a round.

[Ben Hollerbach]

When I first started playing hickory the comment I heard over and over was about playing the softest ball you can and avoiding range balls. At this point I'm not sure I believe it.


The variety of golf balls available 90 or 100 years ago may have been more varied than we play with today. Bobby Jones once wrote about playing a 130 compression ball in competition at times for extra distance! As long as the shaft is in good condition and the head is well epoxied onto the shaft it should matter little about which ball you hit. My greatest concern with range practice is hitting off of mats, I won't do that, but I'm ok warming up hitting my hickories at the range.


Unfortunately we don't have that much concrete evidence about how the balls of that era truly played, and any good examples of balls from that period have degraded to a point its hard to collect that evidence today. So when trying to select a ball to play with hickories we really only have the written comments of players from the era to go off of and any evolutionary evidence presences. This is one reason why I don't put a lot of stock in the reproduction balls, yes they look like a vintage ball but I don't have any idea if they play like one.

[Mike_DeVries]

Do you find a performance difference between the replica's and the original gear?

That is an interesting question.  The short answer is that I don't find any real difference- but that is after 5 years of finding the perfect clubs and dialing them in. 

If you had a month to assemble a set, you'd likely experience a very big difference because you'd have originals where the shafts vary, where leading edges would be too sharp, where the swing weights would be all over the map, etc. 

But now that I have clubs with great weighting and shapes, I'm convinced that I'm slightly better with them than I would be with replicas.  i.e. if I had to play for my life, I wouldn't switch back to replicas.  But part of that might be personal because I'm not a big divot taker and I find the lack of bounce on the irons to fit my swing.  As Ben mentioned, the replicas have much more bounce- so for someone with a higher angle of attack, they might find that extremely helpful. 

One other thing that I've noticed is that the raw forged heads of the originals really feel soft and pleasing.  Some clubs were chrome plated so that they wouldn't rust, and those feel much more clicky/ harsh.  I just send those off to get them de-chromed now whenever I get them.  The replicas are cast and you don't get that same feel.  The whole experience makes me want to get a set of modern forged irons with a raw finish.

I have a set of pre-1935 hickories and I really like that each club has its own personality, so some days you just go with those clubs that feel "right" and manufacture shots for the situation.  The new replicas are not the same experience, as they are very well balanced and machined -- equal to a good set of 1980's clubs.  Finding old clubs that work together and do what you want is one of the charms of Hickory golf.