Lost holes on still existing top tier courses.

[Adam Lawrence]

Agreed about the current 9th at Woking. Not a very good hole.

I have seen a blurry, intriguing aerial of Simpson's 9th. Recovering that hole and the 10th would not be a massive undertaking and would make a very good course even better.

Bob


Simpson's hole? Not Dunne/Low/Paton's? You know something about Woking that I don't!

[Adam Lawrence]

Agreed about the current 9th at Woking. Not a very good hole.


I have seen a blurry, intriguing aerial of Simpson's 9th. Recovering that hole and the 10th would not be a massive undertaking and would make a very good course even better.


Bob

Surely the green is no longer recoverable due to boundary issues though? The tee used to be on a straight line back from the current front tee I believe, straightening out the hole much more than it is now.

I'm not sure if it could be recovered or not. The green is just in the woods, though it is probably quite close to the road.

[BCrosby]

Agreed about the current 9th at Woking. Not a very good hole.

I have seen a blurry, intriguing aerial of Simpson's 9th. Recovering that hole and the 10th would not be a massive undertaking and would make a very good course even better.

Bob


Simpson's hole? Not Dunne/Low/Paton's? You know something about Woking that I don't!

The club confirmed the Simpson provenance. There was some discussion of restoring the holes, but discussions have, apparently, moved on to other matters. My guess is that it happens one day.


Bob

[Sean_A]

I think Simpson's 9&10 are recoverable. I believe 9 tee was behind 8 green and played to a spot just in the woods where the current 9th turns left (outside part of dogleg). It was a long par 3. The 10th climbed the hill diagonally to the current 10th green. This was a long par four of some 425 yards. Despite liking the 10th, most anything would be better than the drive at 9.

Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

Luffenham shares the Goswick problem of having lost three holes during WW2, never got the land back, and in consequence has had to do a certain amount of squeezing around the turn - again see the old plan in the clubhouse for the intriguing holes beyond the current 11th. Sand Moor lost an even greater quantity of land (I think for housing), and has had to do some distinctly unsatisfactory squeezing - a generation ago it was often spoke of in the same breadth as Moortown, but not nowadays.
Sadly not top tier now, but prior to 1939 a Welsh championship venue, Rhyl GC lost large amounts of excellent flat linksland during WW2 and became (as it still is) nine holes only.


Sean will know about the disappearance of the famous old 12th and original 13th at Burnham - two genuine losses, although B&B have worked very hard (and still are) to turn things round.


And, of course, there is Rye (where to quote Patric Dickinson every incarnation has been a contraction). The very sandy seaside holes that once existed beyond the coastguard cottages behind the current 3rd green, extending into Camber,  look truly enticing, from the edges of one or two surviving aerial photographs.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think Simpson's 9&10 are recoverable. I believe 9 tee was behind 8 green and played to a spot just in the woods where the current 9th turns left (outside part of dogleg). It was a long par 3. The 10th climbed the hill diagonally to the current 10th green. This was a long par four of some 425 yards. Despite liking the 10th, most anything would be better than the drive at 9.

Ciao

If that’s the case, I had it all wrong... all these partial memories from years ago.

[BCrosby]

I think Simpson's 9&10 are recoverable. I believe 9 tee was behind 8 green and played to a spot just in the woods where the current 9th turns left (outside part of dogleg). It was a long par 3. The 10th climbed the hill diagonally to the current 10th green. This was a long par four of some 425 yards. Despite liking the 10th, most anything would be better than the drive at 9.

Ciao

That's what an old aerial shows, Sean. I am told that the outline of the old 9th green is still discernable at ground level if you look for it.


Bob

[Sean_A]

I think Simpson's 9&10 are recoverable. I believe 9 tee was behind 8 green and played to a spot just in the woods where the current 9th turns left (outside part of dogleg). It was a long par 3. The 10th climbed the hill diagonally to the current 10th green. This was a long par four of some 425 yards. Despite liking the 10th, most anything would be better than the drive at 9.

Ciao

That's what an old aerial shows, Sean. I am told that the outline of the old 9th green is still discernable at ground level if you look for it.

Bob

Yes, I have seen what is left of the old green. I don't get the impression that the old 9&10 were stellar holes, just better as a pair than the current versions. Even today the old 10th would be a very difficult par 4. Probably about as hard as the current 9th if you can't pound the ball.

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Luffenham shares the Goswick problem of having lost three holes during WW2, never got the land back, and in consequence has had to do a certain amount of squeezing around the turn - again see the old plan in the clubhouse for the intriguing holes beyond the current 11th. Sand Moor lost an even greater quantity of land (I think for housing), and has had to do some distinctly unsatisfactory squeezing - a generation ago it was often spoke of in the same breadth as Moortown, but not nowadays.
Sadly not top tier now, but prior to 1939 a Welsh championship venue, Rhyl GC lost large amounts of excellent flat linksland during WW2 and became (as it still is) nine holes only.


Sean will know about the disappearance of the famous old 12th and original 13th at Burnham - two genuine losses, although B&B have worked very hard (and still are) to turn things round.


And, of course, there is Rye (where to quote Patric Dickinson every incarnation has been a contraction). The very sandy seaside holes that once existed beyond the coastguard cottages behind the current 3rd green, extending into Camber,  look truly enticing, from the edges of one or two surviving aerial photographs.

I am not old enough to have seen the old 12 and 13 of Burnham, but at the time the membership loved the 12th. Despite what I consider dubious recent changes to both holes, I would be surprised if the newer versions aren't better as a set. It doesn't much matter because the new holes solved a few serious problems. The far more famous Majuba is still part of the 17th.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Revisions at Burnham were something that I pondered about too, especially the holes that were once routed back towards the town although maybe this falls outwith Ally’s stimulations. Western-super-Mare might fall into a similar category, likewise Swansea Bay?

And wasn’t the 1st/18th area of the Old Course a little different prior to the building of the Bruce Embankment?

Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Whereas I am really old, and recall vividly both the old 12th (with its special green for Sunday play, short of the otherwise very-much-in church) and the 13th from trips to Burnham with my Dad in the 1970s. The land sale of the latter helped fund the Channel Course, at least according to Somerset rumour.


Another cracking lost hole inland was the 12th at Lindrick, a long two shots hard by the main road (hence its loss). Its successor is the other side of that same road, and completely different in character.

[Thomas Dai]

Wasn’t Tenby re-routed due to erosion? Or was it for MoD firing range reasons?
Atb

[Mike_Clayton]

Metropolitan, my club in Melbourne, lost seven back nine holes to a government who 'compulsorily acquired' them to build a school in the late 1950s.
Everyone who played them said they were at least equal to those on the front nine - and, thus, by common consensus better than the new holes.
Dick Wilson built a 8 new holes (eliminating the par 3, 6th which I restored a decade ago) on land cleared of trees and with less sand than the front nine.
It's a good nine but the panicked, mass tree planting on the back to have it feel like the front 9 as quickly as possible has lead to inevitable problems 60 years later.

[Kyle Henderson]

Lido.   


St Andrews Eden, Sharp Park and Olympic Ocean are the two courses I’ve played in recent decades that i would dearly  love to play in their original forms based upon historical  photos, but I couldn’t recount the specific hole numbers.

[Garland Bayley]

I’m going through the top Irish courses I know:


- Portmarnock has only lost / changed one full hole in its 127 year history and that was replacing an old par-3 between 17 & 18 with the new par-3 15th in the 1920’s. A huge improvement so doesn’t count.


- The only possible holes that Lahinch has lost that could have been better than the current ones are the old 3rd and the old 7th. Considering the two there now are excellent, it’s unlikely to be a significant loss. They also lost the old par-3 8th from MacKenzie’s course (the replacement probably matches it) and then there’s the debate about the two 11ths in play.


- Ballybunion really has lost no entire holes of note since it was expanded by Fred Smith in the 20’s and then improved by Tom Simpson in the 30’s. Debate on the 7th green perhaps.


- Baltray has lost no hole of significance.


- Portrush has clearly lost 17 & 18 but I think most agree they weren’t significant losses. I do recall that they lost two Colt holes nearer town early on (to be replaced by 8 and 9, now 10 & 11). Haven’t ever seen writings on how valued these holes were.


- RCD don’t think so. The redesign of the 16th was a conscious choice.


Outside Ireland, St.Andrews Eden is maybe a poster child. Not sure how great the lost holes were but if the still in existence old 2nd green (now practice green) is anything to go by, they were pretty good. And they must have been better than what replaced them.

Jeff Warne would tell us that Narin and Portnoo lost some good par 4s to some much lesser narrow par 5s to lengthen the course. I have only seen the course with the par 5s. Slag Bandoon was also a big proponent of the previous version. My most memorable recollection of the par 5s is that Dick Daley couldn't keep the ball in play on them, thereby leading to two won holes for me.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Given that this forum considers it a top tier course then the abandoned 4th hole at Painswick counts. Still there in the woods to the left of the current hole.

[Sean_A]

Given that this forum considers it a top tier course then the abandoned 4th hole at Painswick counts. Still there in the woods to the left of the current hole.

Pushing that leaky boat into deep waters 😎

Ciao