Irrigated approaches

[Thomas Dai]

Irrigated approaches are a pet hate of mine.
I like options in decision making not just the aerial game nor the ground game but options.

And irrigated approaches restrict the option of landing shots short of greens and bouncing/rolling/trickling shots onto the putting surfaces. They also limit longer distance off-green putting especially with modern putters at only 3*-4* loft.
Thoughts?
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

You mean soft approaches.  Nothing wrong with them being irrigated if they are kept firm.  But I agree, nothing worse than a firm green and a soft approach or vise versa.  Actually a good irrigation system can help with this situation, one that allows the super to control where they use water and where they don’t. 

[Adam Lawrence]

No, he means irrigated. You must remember that a large proportion of British courses don't have fairway irrigation.

[Thomas Dai]

Yes and no Mark with soft being the yes!
And, as Adam says, I do mean irrigated. These days even many links and heathland courses, courses which traditionally played firm and bouncy, have irrigated approaches, something that wasn’t once the case.
There also seems to have developed a modern trend for approaches to be quite narrow and hand mown seems to be in vogue as well and when there are upslopes involved and hand mower stripes that pattern both with and against even a difference of a few inches on landing spot can make a difference in how the ball releases or doesn’t release. Sharper grooves on irons (and spinny wedges with much lower lofts these days) also has an effect although one that with a bit of nous a player could be able to alleviate.
Atb


PS - I’m sure some folks will remember in decades gone past how your pitching wedge had hardly any bounce and a narrow flange and was great for ‘pinching’ a ball from tight lies and hardpan. Not so easy from such a lie these days, if such lies even exist in the modern manicured golf world, with modern large headed, more bouncy, wider flange clubs.

[Adrian_Stiff]

We irrigate our approaches but never enough that they are soft, so the ground game is an option.


it is much better for quality golf in 2020 than it was in 1980.

[Brad Lawrence]

I spent a decade as a club pro and learned that firm baked out ground  angers people.  Unfortunately, the masses want lush, green and soft turf.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps less recognized, but the advent of part to part, ins and out sprinkers around greens has contributed to wet approaches.  Specifically, if all are set to perfect 90 degree rotations, then 4 sprinklers (maybe 6 if you count the last two fw heads) instead of two are irrigating the approach, and each is pausing just a few seconds (the "drill Point" before returning the other direction.  No wonder many are so wet.


One partial solution is to adjust each of those part sprinklers to continue past or short of 90 degrees to avoid the extra concentration of irrigation at that drill point, which so often lands right in the approach.

[Mark_Fine]

I think we all agree what matters is the firmness of the approaches.  Those that are wide encourage the ground game as well.  The key is to know when to use your irrigation (if you have it) and how much.  Note:  The best approaches are also well integrated with the green/green complex.  I see too many that are an afterthought (mostly on aerial golf courses). 

[Matt_Cohn]

I would think it’s the consistency that matters.

[Kalen Braley]

I've long felt that wet approaches and firm greens is one way to challenge top notch players...

and then visa versa for the every day joes so a short shot will bounce up on the green, and thier approaches otherwise have a chance at hitting and holding the green.

[Tim Martin]

To aerate the approaches on a schedule and then mute the effect by over watering seems crazy. A fairway wood that lands twenty yards short and bounces into the green is one of the most fun shots I can think of. It adversely affects a variety of shots.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Perhaps less recognized, but the advent of part to part, ins and out sprinkers around greens has contributed to wet approaches.  Specifically, if all are set to perfect 90 degree rotations, then 4 sprinklers (maybe 6 if you count the last two fw heads) instead of two are irrigating the approach, and each is pausing just a few seconds (the "drill Point" before returning the other direction.  No wonder many are so wet.


One partial solution is to adjust each of those part sprinklers to continue past or short of 90 degrees to avoid the extra concentration of irrigation at that drill point, which so often lands right in the approach.

To get an automatic system to water greens and their surrounds perfectly is nearly impossible, even with a brand new system. That's why the best irrigation system for the intricacies of greens and surrounds is called "guy (or girl) with hose." Being able to establish a baseline of irrigation via the overhead at a deficit (or not at all), with hose work to supplement hot spots gives you the best conditions. I will say it's very hard to train elite level hand watering, which is why you see Superintendents and Head Greenkeepers dragging hose.

[archie_struthers]

 


The  par four 10th at Hidden Creek (NJ) is a great example. After an uphill tee shot most of us face a middle iron to a long fall away green that is pretty blind. It looks and feels like a perfect low flying second to allow for a big bounce and run out. For years the approach was way too soft and made that shot almost impossible for anyone but a really long hitter.


Looking forward to playing it as it should be with firm and fast conditions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Perhaps less recognized, but the advent of part to part, ins and out sprinkers around greens has contributed to wet approaches.  Specifically, if all are set to perfect 90 degree rotations, then 4 sprinklers (maybe 6 if you count the last two fw heads) instead of two are irrigating the approach, and each is pausing just a few seconds (the "drill Point" before returning the other direction.  No wonder many are so wet.


One partial solution is to adjust each of those part sprinklers to continue past or short of 90 degrees to avoid the extra concentration of irrigation at that drill point, which so often lands right in the approach.

To get an automatic system to water greens and their surrounds perfectly is nearly impossible, even with a brand new system. That's why the best irrigation system for the intricacies of greens and surrounds is called "guy (or girl) with hose." Being able to establish a baseline of irrigation via the overhead at a deficit (or not at all), with hose work to supplement hot spots gives you the best conditions. I will say it's very hard to train elite level hand watering, which is why you see Superintendents and Head Greenkeepers dragging hose.

I agree on that.  We always caution supers that no system will completely eliminate hand watering.


That said, making sure your ins and outs don't inadvertently over water the approach has proven practical to minimize over watering (and perhaps bringing spot watering back into play for the conscientious super.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The  par four 10th at Hidden Creek (NJ) is a great example. After an uphill tee shot most of us face a middle iron to a long fall away green that is pretty blind. It looks and feels like a perfect low flying second to allow for a big bounce and run out. For years the approach was way too soft and made that shot almost impossible for anyone but a really long hitter.


Looking forward to playing it as it should be with firm and fast conditions.

I was there for four days last September. I am not able to fly the ball all the way to the green and hold it because I don't hit it high anymore. The path to the green played firm and I could run my second shot either onto the green or, unfortunately, into the bunker on the left.

[Thomas Dai]

To what extent is thatch accumulated over time an issue and if so what methods should be used to alleviate it? Moss accumulations also.
Atb

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps less recognized, but the advent of part to part, ins and out sprinkers around greens has contributed to wet approaches.  Specifically, if all are set to perfect 90 degree rotations, then 4 sprinklers (maybe 6 if you count the last two fw heads) instead of two are irrigating the approach, and each is pausing just a few seconds (the "drill Point" before returning the other direction.  No wonder many are so wet.


One partial solution is to adjust each of those part sprinklers to continue past or short of 90 degrees to avoid the extra concentration of irrigation at that drill point, which so often lands right in the approach.

To get an automatic system to water greens and their surrounds perfectly is nearly impossible, even with a brand new system. That's why the best irrigation system for the intricacies of greens and surrounds is called "guy (or girl) with hose." Being able to establish a baseline of irrigation via the overhead at a deficit (or not at all), with hose work to supplement hot spots gives you the best conditions. I will say it's very hard to train elite level hand watering, which is why you see Superintendents and Head Greenkeepers dragging hose.

I agree on that.  We always caution supers that no system will completely eliminate hand watering.


That said, making sure your ins and outs don't inadvertently over water the approach has proven practical to minimize over watering (and perhaps bringing spot watering back into play for the conscientious super.

Excellent; thank you, Jeff.

I play at a university course, and the super is not allowed to pay overtime, so there is little, if any hand watering.  This is in NC, and still with bent grass greens, so in the summer especially, the approaches are just too soft.  There are several very difficult par 4's that were designed by Mr. Fazio to allow a run up option, but the holes simply cannot be played that way.

[Jeff_Brauer]

AG,


Unfortunately, the way things go, in a constant search for perfection that we have seen for greens, bunkers, etc., approaches are both down the list for most.  And, it won't be long before someone proposes artificial turf for the approaches, which should remain consistent, much more so than real turf, no?

[John Emerson]

To what extent is thatch accumulated over time an issue and if so what methods should be used to alleviate it? Moss accumulations also.
Atb

Thatch accumulation is directly proportional to growth rate.  As growth is increased so will thatch accumulations. Thatch can be a problem on many golf surface.  It should be kept to a minimum in order to provide optimum playing surfaces.  Rhizomotous and stoloniferous grass, such as bents, ky bluegrass, zoysia, and bermudas will be more prone to produce higher amounts of thatch.

I have never seen moss anywhere but putting surfaces.  But, those greens where it happens the following occurs.  All or a combination of these can cause moss outbreaks. Moisture and fertility being the main drivers. Poor surface drainage, poor water management, excessive fertility (especially P), nutrient deficient grass, poor sunlight, and thinned turf.  Moss, imho, is an indicator that something very fundamental is not being done properly.

[Sean_A]

I would think it’s the consistency that matters.

Yes, I think the firmness of approaches should come close to matching greens. It sucks to have approaches much less firm than greens.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

I would think it’s the consistency that matters.

Yes, I think the firmness of approaches should come close to matching greens. It sucks to have approaches much less firm than greens.


Ciao

+1

[Thomas Dai]

Recently I had the opportunity thanks to a fellow poster herein to play one of GBs most elite heathland courses. Wonderful as it was there was one aspect in particular that I didn’t care for ….. irrigated approaches. In fact the course had irrigated fairways too. And there were lots of worm casts around too, which should say something.
It simply wasn’t possible to play shots to land short of greens and have the ball bounce and release and roll and trickle onto the putting surface nor play short greenside shots into upslopes to check there pace.
Seems like some of GBs elite heathland courses, like many links courses as well these days, have become bastardised-parklands, hybrid-parklands.
How disappointing that the option to play the ground game is being gradually removed and that the delightful ‘thud’ sound of a ball landing on firm turf likely won’t be heard where once it was the norm.
There’s nothing wrong with firm, brown and beige fairways and approaches. Please can we have them back.
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Slightly OT, and I know it varies with the firmness and dampness which can be variable but has any of the gca's here measured the % of upslope that tends to kill approach shots from rolling on the green?


I have seen old men (and now I resemble that remark....) complain about upslopes of as little as 7%, after seeing their ball land and stop, believing they should reach the green.  I have also seen a women sort of half top and skitter a shot up a much greater slope of at least 15% in the fw approach.  The irony seems to be that a topped shot may go through anything, while a lofted (for senior men) well struck shot may often lose all momentum when it hits the entry fw band to the green.  Back in the old days, they put in top shot bunkers to eliminate that "unfairness."


I always wonder about this, because the old RTJ and Wilson style greens, often lauded as "elevated" often had mid slope approaches of 5-15%, obviously with little concern for rolling on by seniors, women, and long approach shots after a duffed tee shot?  Historically, I have tended to keep greens as low as possible to both make the run up fw connector function as a run up option, and also, keep long and lateral misses from bounding too far away from the green.  However, to my eye those RTJ/Wilson approaches look pretty good, and certainly set up the bunker depth most of us want in gca.


Just asking!

[Kyle Harris]

And if irrigation is the only way to firm the approach?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Recently I had the opportunity thanks to a fellow poster herein to play one of GBs most elite heathland courses. Wonderful as it was there was one aspect in particular that I didn’t care for ….. irrigated approaches. In fact the course had irrigated fairways too. And there were lots of worm casts around too, which should say something.
It simply wasn’t possible to play shots to land short of greens and have the ball bounce and release and roll and trickle onto the putting surface nor play short greenside shots into upslopes to check there pace.
Seems like some of GBs elite heathland courses, like many links courses as well these days, have become bastardised-parklands, hybrid-parklands.
How disappointing that the option to play the ground game is being gradually removed and that the delightful ‘thud’ sound of a ball landing on firm turf likely won’t be heard where once it was the norm.
There’s nothing wrong with firm, brown and beige fairways and approaches. Please can we have them back.
Atb

Sad to say that I believe unirrigated courses will not be viable moving forward. Even in the UK. It would be easy to say that it's the evil irrigation companies behind it all but that simply isn't the case. Climate change will be the culprit. The only places on Earth where unirrigated turf is currently viable is the UK and Ireland, maybe some places in Scandinavia, and the far northeastern coast of the US (think Maine basically). I agree with you that there's nothing wrong with with playing on dormant turf, in fact in can be argued that it is preferable. The problem is that even a dormant turf needs a bit of moisture so it doesn't desiccate down to straight dirt. And traffic on dormant turf is a huge concern, as dormant turf is not growing, and growth is needed for recovery. With walking golf, dormant turf can handle the stress spread out over fairways, but cannot on greens and tees, they will become dirt during a drought, which is why you see many UK courses with irrigation just on greens and tees. Approaches are a grey area that probably need irrigation due to being middlingly trafficked. Even worse, unirrigated fine turfs will gradually desiccate down to nothing during a severe drought, then when the rains come, the remaining seedbed in the soil will only be such undesirables as poa annua and Yorkshire Fog, which will happily fill the void.


The good news is that just because a course has irrigation does not mean that it can't be used sparingly and properly. In practice this is hard. A green plant is percieved as a healthy plant, but so too can a dormant plant be a healthy plant. But good luck to any greenkeeper that lets his course glide into dormancy apart from greens and tees with a wall-to-wall irrigation system, only watering fairways and rough that are losing leaf tissue. He better have compromising photos of his Greens Chairman and GM.