[James Boon]

The first time I played Formby, I was staying with a few other GCAers in the dormy house, so after the round had time to wander out to see the location of the old holes. The erosion hadnt totally taken away the land that would have been the par 3 at the furthest point, and I couldnt help but think that if the hole was still there, it would certainly be well photographed and look stunning with the sea hard right of the green. Though on reflection the amount of concrete and gabions that would no doubt be put in the counter the erosion may have ruined the aesthetic somewhat? 


Cheers,


James

[Phil Burr]

Perhaps I'm guilty of pushing the intent of the original posting, but how about highly regarded courses that have undergone dramatic changes (more than a few holes) without changing the original footprint of the property?  Del Paso Country Club in Sacramento was highly regarded enough to host four USGA events (one Women's Open, two Women's Amateurs and a Senior Women's Amateur) prior to its reinvention in 2005-6 by Kyle Phillips.  The only original hole corridors still in use appear to be current #6-7, #9 and #10 (6-7 were originally 4-5).  The US Senior Open was contested there in 2015 so the USGA evidently still hold the course in high regard.  The changes occurred within the existing boundaries of a property closely surrounded on all sides by homes, business and congested streets.

[Jeff Johnston]

Great topic Ally.

At Portrush, obviously 5&6 on the Valley had to go to accommodate the changes on Dunluce. Two Colt originals I believe (including the v strong par 3 6th) and a v cool little dune pocket gone. Ah well.

I remember seeing the McK&E write-up before the R&A proposals on the two RPGC courses were voted through. As I (dimly) recall M&E reckoned that as part of the required reconfiguring of the closing holes on the Valley, they had rediscovered / excavated at least one very old green, and maybe a hole channel (or two) as well. I'll see if I can dig out the details, or maybe someone with good knowledge on Portrush can weigh in?

[Mike Hendren]

The 3 tunnel holes at Plainfield are a slight notch below the balance of the course, particularly the one shotter. Were the holes they replaced on the hilly terrain now occupied by the range inferior?


Mike

[Sean_A]

The Widow at Hayling was dumbed down during the blind hole witch hunt days. In this case it was the misguided action of Tom Simpson.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

WW2 changed a few ... Saunton, Dornoch, Princes for example.
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Goswick. I remain convinced that the course layout in the vicinity of the clubhouse would have been preferable before the three holes to the south were lost at some point during WW2 (see the old plan in the clubhouse). I know that Ran doesn’t quite agree, but I think that both 9 and 18 would have been much less hemmed in then than they are now. Archive photographs also suggest a very significant sandy hazard on that lost part of the course.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The Widow at Hayling was dumbed down during the blind hole witch hunt days. In this case it was the misguided action of Tom Simpson.

Ciao

I was always of the impression that it was Simpson that created that original hole (or at least sung its praises)... I’m surprised to hear that he dumbed it down. Did the bunker just fill in over time or was that a conscious decision?

[Adam Lawrence]

The Widow at Hayling was dumbed down during the blind hole witch hunt days. In this case it was the misguided action of Tom Simpson.

Ciao

I was always of the impression that it was Simpson that created that original hole (or at least sung its praises)... I’m surprised to hear that he dumbed it down. Did the bunker just fill in over time or was that a conscious decision?

There's a letter from John Morrison to Hugh Alison quoted in Hawtree's 'Colt & Co' in which Morrison says that he has just been at Hayling and "Tom Simpson has excelled himself and made the famous Widow into the worst golf hole I have ever seen on any seaside links."

[Sean_A]

The Widow at Hayling was dumbed down during the blind hole witch hunt days. In this case it was the misguided action of Tom Simpson.

Ciao

I was always of the impression that it was Simpson that created that original hole (or at least sung its praises)... I’m surprised to hear that he dumbed it down. Did the bunker just fill in over time or was that a conscious decision?

Did he sing his praises after altering the hole?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

The Widow at Hayling was dumbed down during the blind hole witch hunt days. In this case it was the misguided action of Tom Simpson.

Ciao

I was always of the impression that it was Simpson that created that original hole (or at least sung its praises)... I’m surprised to hear that he dumbed it down. Did the bunker just fill in over time or was that a conscious decision?

There's a letter from John Morrison to Hugh Alison quoted in Hawtree's 'Colt & Co' in which Morrison says that he has just been at Hayling and "Tom Simpson has excelled himself and made the famous Widow into the worst golf hole I have ever seen on any seaside links."

Yes I know of that letter. If my memory serves, it was the Simpson version that was then considered as the great hole. It was a subsequent dumbing down that we are discussing here?


Simpson himself wrote of potential changes to the Widow and how he was vehemently against them.


But this is from memory. I could very well either be remembering wrongly or misinterpreting what I recall reading.

[Sean_A]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

22 September 1949

[Ally Mcintosh]

To be honest, the history of the Widow at Hayling would be a good one to delve back in to.


Other than bitterness, I can’t see what would have prompted Morrison to write such a thing when the primary change of the hole was to remove two blind shots and replace them with a more “normal” but visible hole.


If any firm of the time was known for eradicating blindness and building greens to be seen, it was probably that of Colt & co., more so than Simpson anyway...  plus placing the hole where it is was surely the “obvious” answer and as I said, I am 82% sure that I read something from Simpson about his love of the unorthodox about the hole...


But I haven’t got the details. Would be good if someone did. I wouldn’t be surprised if it underwent two major changes...

[Sean_A]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

22 September 1949

That makes sense. Simpson did a second round of changes in 1946.  The old punchbowl green at 13 survived the 1932 changes. I have seen a photo from the mid 30s with the punchbowl green still in play.

I think the hole used to play more over the widow bunker embeded into the large dune. From memory, the hole now plays wide of the hill.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

22 September 1949

That makes sense. Simpson did a second round of changes in 1946.  The old punchbowl green at 13 survived the 1932 changes. I have seen a photo from the mid 30s with the punchbowl green still in play.

I think the hole used to play more over the widow bunker embeded into the large dune. From memory, the hole now plays wide of the hill.

Ciao

Having done a quick search, seems Simpson came back in ‘46 as the course had been commandeered for the war effort. Perhaps the punch bowl no longer existed. Also seems the tee angles have been changed in more modern times along with the bunker being filled in 1970.


Still seems like an extraordinary exaggeration from Morrison if he’s talking about a hole that looks like the current one: “The worst golf hole I have seen on a seaside links”

[Michael Felton]

James "The story of Colt’s lost holes at Sunningdale New fascinates me.  They look like they were pretty special from the few pictures I’ve seen.  https://golfclubatlas.com/sunningdale-pg-3/Was anything good lost when the M25 took a chunk out of Walton Heath?"

I was going to mention Walton. I never got to play the old 9th, but from what I've heard it was a better hole than the current one. I think people miss it.


Thomas "WW2 changed a few ... Saunton, Dornoch, Princes for example.
Atb"

Did Turnberry also lose some to WW2?

I couldn't make a double quote work, so went this way instead.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Not sure how generous you are with your "Top Tier" courses definition but Sutton Bay has been the top rated course in SD basically since its inception.   


Unfortunately after several successful and well received years, well over half of the holes of the original 18 holes began to sluff off the hillsides next to Lake Oahe (Missouri River) that they occupied.  I believe the lake level was lower when the course was designed and "experts" thought it would never return to it levels from many many years ago, but after several wet years it did.  That somehow changed the hydrodynamics in the soil structure and things started to slide slowly towards the lake.  As I understand it at first they tried stopgap measures changing some holes, etc.  But eventually when more and more holes showed the same signs they eventually built what in essence was a whole new course up on top of the bluffs abandoning the lake side holes.  Views of the lake now, but no where near as close as the original routing.


Still listed as the top course in SD, and it is a good golf course, but not as good as when most of the holes occupied the land closer to the lake.  If you look at sattelite images of the site now you can see some remnants of the old holes to the west of the current course wrapping around that point on the SW corner.  Really surreal having played the original holes to play the new course and look down the hill to see the abandoned holes (albeit being reclaimed by native grasses).  Some look like melting wax versions running down the hillside towards the lake.


Interestingly enough I just realized or remembered that the original routing is featured in our courses by country archive here:


https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sutton-bay-sd-usa/


It was sad to see those pictures and know that the wild and woolly routing through the lakeside property are now gone.  Replaced by a nice course but not the same vibe...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not exactly what Ally was looking for in the OP, but the caddies at Pinehurst can show you some old landforms of greens scattered around the property, including one near the 18th tee of no. 2, deep in the woods to the left.

[Sean_A]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

22 September 1949

That makes sense. Simpson did a second round of changes in 1946.  The old punchbowl green at 13 survived the 1932 changes. I have seen a photo from the mid 30s with the punchbowl green still in play.

I think the hole used to play more over the widow bunker embeded into the large dune. From memory, the hole now plays wide of the hill.

Ciao

Having done a quick search, seems Simpson came back in ‘46 as the course had been commandeered for the war effort. Perhaps the punch bowl no longer existed. Also seems the tee angles have been changed in more modern times along with the bunker being filled in 1970.


Still seems like an extraordinary exaggeration from Morrison if he’s talking about a hole that looks like the current one: “The worst golf hole I have seen on a seaside links”

I think you are right, Widow remains a good hole despite being dumbed down. I suspect hard feelings existed previously as Morrison had issues with Simpson's changes on Sunny New. On the surface, Morrison might have been right to be angry about some changes. I get the impression Simpson was a contrary man 😎.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

It was my impression Simpson moved the green to higher ground. It was a blind approach punchbowl.

Adam

What is the date of that letter?

Ciao

22 September 1949

That makes sense. Simpson did a second round of changes in 1946.  The old punchbowl green at 13 survived the 1932 changes. I have seen a photo from the mid 30s with the punchbowl green still in play.

I think the hole used to play more over the widow bunker embeded into the large dune. From memory, the hole now plays wide of the hill.

Ciao

Having done a quick search, seems Simpson came back in ‘46 as the course had been commandeered for the war effort. Perhaps the punch bowl no longer existed. Also seems the tee angles have been changed in more modern times along with the bunker being filled in 1970.


Still seems like an extraordinary exaggeration from Morrison if he’s talking about a hole that looks like the current one: “The worst golf hole I have seen on a seaside links”

I think you are right, Widow remains a good hole despite being dumbed down. I suspect hard feelings existed previously as Morrison had issues with Simpson's changes on Sunny New. On the surface, Morrison might have been right to be angry about some changes. I get the impression Simpson was a contrary man 😎.

Ciao

Yes, reading the article, Morrison was “determined to ‘de-Simpsonise’ Sunningdale New, a phrase he coined also about Rye”... he definitely seems to have it in for Simpson. There are great pictures of the lost Colt holes at Sunny New. I’d be very interested to see pictures of the lost Simpson holes.

[BCrosby]

I would also like to see pictures of the lost Simpson holes at Woking.


As I recall they were replaced by the current 9th and 10th.


Bob

[Adam Lawrence]

I would also like to see pictures of the lost Simpson holes at Woking.


As I recall they were replaced by the current 9th and 10th.


Bob

I found the original ninth green at Woking once. It's in the woods between the current hole and Hook Heath Road. The tenth then was a sidehill hole that played to the same green as is still in use (which is, I surmise, why that green doesn't appear oriented to accept shots from the direction in which it is currently played).


The current ninth, imo, is comfortably the worst hole at Woking. It could be improved -- there is a huge pine at the corner of the dogleg which would need to go, and perhaps be replaced by a bunker complex. Also the green is desperately short of pin locations.

[BCrosby]

Agreed about the current 9th at Woking. Not a very good hole.


I have seen a blurry, intriguing aerial of Simpson's 9th. Recovering that hole and the 10th would not be a massive undertaking and would make a very good course even better.


Bob

[Ally Mcintosh]

Agreed about the current 9th at Woking. Not a very good hole.


I have seen a blurry, intriguing aerial of Simpson's 9th. Recovering that hole and the 10th would not be a massive undertaking and would make a very good course even better.


Bob

Surely the green is no longer recoverable due to boundary issues though? The tee used to be on a straight line back from the current front tee I believe, straightening out the hole much more than it is now.

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