Lost holes on still existing top tier courses.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have we done this before?


I’m thinking of superior holes that have been lost (through erosion, land grab, whatever) on top ranked courses. Far less interested in holes that have been deliberately designed out in order to improve a routing.


The original MacKenzie 3rd and 7th holes were lost to erosion at Lahinch. The 3rd in particular used to play its entire length along ground that is no longer there.


Mount Zion at Machrie perhaps another.


What other great holes have we mourned?


EDIT: As per reply 12, we’re ideally looking for holes of note that may have reduced the quality of the course because they were lost.

[Richard Fisher]

Three more seaside suggestions
Four of the most seaward holes at Brancaster, 10th to 13th, were lost to erosion I think around WW2, including a celebrated short hole (the 11th): you can still trace some of the outlines
The likewise seaward holes including a famous short hole at Formby, replaced by their modern equivalents at the 7th and 8th and tweaked 9th and 10th c40 years ago (and there have always been rumours, justified or not, that the causal erotion has in fact ceased)
The 2-3 holes deep in the dunes beyond the 16th fairway at Harlech, established but then given up because of blown sand in the early 1920s (again you can still trace some of the outlines)

[Thomas Dai]

7th at Westward Ho!, wonderful hole, now lost to the sea. Maybe the 8th/9th too depending on the merits of the replacements/revisions. Suspect there have likely been others on the same site that have needed adjusting over the decades.
Fingers crossed for parts of Montrose and Royal Aberdeen.

Atb

[Jeff Schley]

Not saying it is a top tier course, but the former Ocean Trails in Palos Verdes, CA literally lost their 18th hole to a landslide 20 years ago. We know who the present owner is now and parking politics, the views are great and seeing it is almost impossible to build any course along the coast nowadays it maybe the last ever in So Cal.

[David_Tepper]

I don't know the specifics, but I believe both San Francisco GC and Lake Merced CC lost holes on the east side of their properties when highway 280 was built in 1955.

I think Tom Doak's work at SFGC several years ago was aimed at recreating at least one of the holes lost ("Little Tillie"). Gil Hanse's pending renovation at LMCC is intended to restore the look/feel of the course before it was altered due to the highway being built.
 

[Adam Lawrence]

Have we done this before?


I’m thinking of superior holes that have been lost (through erosion, land grab, whatever) on top ranked courses. Far less interested in holes that have been deliberately designed out in order to improve a routing.


The original MacKenzie 3rd and 7th holes were lost to erosion at Lahinch. The 3rd in particular used to play its entire length along ground that is no longer there.


Mount Zion at Machrie perhaps another.


What other great holes have we mourned?

Given the extent of the recent Machrie changes, it goes a lot further than Mount Zion there!

[Michael Whitaker]

Adam - is there a comprehensive detailing of the changes at Machrie available somewhere?

[David_Tepper]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/improving-the-old-machrie-links-out-of-all-recognition

[Tommy Williamsen]

7th at Westward Ho!, wonderful hole, now lost to the sea. Maybe the 8th/9th too depending on the merits of the replacements/revisions. Suspect there have likely been others on the same site that have needed adjusting over the decades.
Fingers crossed for parts of Montrose and Royal Aberdeen.

Atb

No matter how good the new ninth will be, I will still miss the old ninth.

[Michael Whitaker]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/improving-the-old-machrie-links-out-of-all-recognition

Interesting. But, that article is nearly five years old. Where do opinions on the changes stand now?

[Greg Tallman]

How about Cabo del Sol’s 17th and 18th holes? Perhaps even the short lived 7th with tee amid the crashing surf.

[Tim Leahy]

How about Cabo del Sol’s 17th and 18th holes? Perhaps even the short lived 7th with tee amid the crashing surf.

+1 a real shame.
Also Olympic Club Ocean Course lost a great Cliffside hole at least once. Half-moon Bay Palmer course has lost the 18th green multiple times into the ocean. The MacKenzie course at Hagin Oaks in Sacramento lost multiple original  AM holes to roads built and changed the course so much it is unrecognizable from the original blue prints on display in the restaurant.

[Matthew Rose]

I think the Melbourne sandbelt would be full of them.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ideally we’re looking for “holes of note” on this thread. Holes that because they are lost may have reduced the quality of the top tier course they belonged to.

[Adam Lawrence]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/improving-the-old-machrie-links-out-of-all-recognition

Interesting. But, that article is nearly five years old. Where do opinions on the changes stand now?

I haven't been back since then, so I'm afraid I have nothing else to offer...

[Bill Gayne]

I think nine of Colt's holes on Sea Island Seaside are gone and the remaining nine Colt holes have been redone by Fazio although retaining the original routing.


Norman's 14th at Doonbeg is now gone. I remember it being a 100 yard punch shot to a green perched on the side of a dune.


The Old Course was 22 holes at one point. I read that part of the four lost holes were on land now covered by the golf museum.

[Adam Lawrence]

I think nine of Colt's holes on Sea Island Seaside are gone and the remaining nine Colt holes have been redone by Fazio although retaining the original routing.


Norman's 14th at Doonbeg is now gone. I remember it being a 100 yard punch shot to a green perched on the side of a dune.


The Old Course was 22 holes at one point. I read that part of the four lost holes were on land now covered by the golf museum.

There were never any Colt holes at Sea Island. They were entirely his partner Alison. Colt never returned to the US after WW1.

[Bill Gayne]

Don't tell Sea Island's marketing department.

[Ira Fishman]

The Links course at Wild Dunes lost its signature finishing Par 5 to erosion. It may have tumbled down in its rating regardless but the loss certainly contributed.


Ira

[Niall C]

With regards to the Machrie, the landform for Mount Zion is still there so in theory they could reinstate it if they managed to get a deal done with the adjoining farmer who holds the land.


Arguably you have a few at North Berwick in the way that green sites have been moved ie. 1st and 17th swapped over, and also tees moved forward in the case of the Redan. All would have been different holes back in the day.


Niall

[Paul Rudovsky]

I gather Quaker Ridge had a Redan (I think as its's second hole) way back when.  It was located where the tennis courts are now between #1 green and #2 tee

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m going through the top Irish courses I know:


- Portmarnock has only lost / changed one full hole in its 127 year history and that was replacing an old par-3 between 17 & 18 with the new par-3 15th in the 1920’s. A huge improvement so doesn’t count.


- The only possible holes that Lahinch has lost that could have been better than the current ones are the old 3rd and the old 7th. Considering the two there now are excellent, it’s unlikely to be a significant loss. They also lost the old par-3 8th from MacKenzie’s course (the replacement probably matches it) and then there’s the debate about the two 11ths in play.


- Ballybunion really has lost no entire holes of note since it was expanded by Fred Smith in the 20’s and then improved by Tom Simpson in the 30’s. Debate on the 7th green perhaps.


- Baltray has lost no hole of significance.


- Portrush has clearly lost 17 & 18 but I think most agree they weren’t significant losses. I do recall that they lost two Colt holes nearer town early on (to be replaced by 8 and 9, now 10 & 11). Haven’t ever seen writings on how valued these holes were.


- RCD don’t think so. The redesign of the 16th was a conscious choice.


Outside Ireland, St.Andrews Eden is maybe a poster child. Not sure how great the lost holes were but if the still in existence old 2nd green (now practice green) is anything to go by, they were pretty good. And they must have been better than what replaced them.

[Ronald Montesano]

Scott Witter, a fellow who deserved more of a shot at gca than he got (thanks, 2008 crash) built a course in Akron, NY, around 2001, called Arrowhead. It's a neat place, but I've just learned that the current owners are going all-in on the wedding business. They are building a hotel where the 9th green used to sit. It was a pleasant, reachable par five with a terrific tumble into the putting surface. Now, I'm told, the green is a post in a tomato can, about 100 yards short of where the green used to sit. Alas...


I'll get out there this year to scope out the digging.

[Cal Seifert]

The Links course at Wild Dunes lost its signature finishing Par 5 to erosion. It may have tumbled down in its rating regardless but the loss certainly contributed.


Ira

The condo developments adjacent to that hole have been taking a beating by erosion as well. I couldn’t believe the concrete retaining walls they were building last time I was there.

[James Reader]

The story of Colt’s lost holes at Sunningdale New fascinates me.  They look like they were pretty special from the few pictures I’ve seen.  https://golfclubatlas.com/sunningdale-pg-3/


Was anything good lost when the M25 took a chunk out of Walton Heath?