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mike_beene

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Craig Ranch
« on: May 14, 2021, 12:27:17 AM »
Has anyone played the TPC Craig Ranch course? I have enjoyed Weiskoff courses. This one looks like a pasture between two outlet malls.Is the first tee a half mile from the clubhouse. Maybe it is a good practice venue. Looks like frying death in the summer. Am I wrong?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2021, 11:46:24 AM »
I just saw a nice joke that, with 133 players under par midway through the second round, if the NCAA were running the tournament they would’ve canceled it due to the course being playable but not at a championship level.  ;D

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2021, 12:07:29 PM »
Mike, I played it years ago with Lou Duran and John K on this site.


I recall taking pics and notes of every hole, which I have probably lost by now. 


Each hole on the front nine had some nice little architectural feature that impressed me.  For some reason, I recall a small little bump in the entry to the 2nd green as being particularly nice.


The thrill wore off on the back nine, as the routing crosses, rather than parallels the creek, often with difficult forced carries off the tee and into the greens. 


Looking at pictures that promote the tournament this week, it also reminds me that the bunkers are overly big (even for Texas!) and simply shaped.  Perhaps the last dozen years of seeing shaggy bunkers everywhere magnify this opinion.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2021, 12:20:26 PM »
Is there any Tour Event that has had more venue changes than this one?  I didn't even realize until today it had moved...yet again!

Is this a Texas thing?  Just joshing Lou  ;D

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2021, 12:32:54 PM »
Is there any Tour Event that has had more venue changes than this one?  I didn't even realize until today it had moved...yet again!

Is this a Texas thing?  Just joshing Lou  ;D


Well, the Bob Hope has certainly had more venue changes than any other event. The Honda went through several different courses as well. Greensboro has had some different sites over the years I think. The Byron Nelson is on its third course in like 30 years...not so bad.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2021, 12:35:01 PM »
You can thank your rater buds for dropping a bag of dicks on Trinity Forrest.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2021, 04:49:29 PM »
Has anyone played the TPC Craig Ranch course? I have enjoyed Weiskoff courses. This one looks like a pasture between two outlet malls.Is the first tee a half mile from the clubhouse. Maybe it is a good practice venue. Looks like frying death in the summer. Am I wrong?


Probably have played CR a dozen times.  A pasture it is not, nor are there any outlet malls in the immediate area.  The development has great demographics and the city is one of the fastest growing of its size in the country.  CR was rated #44 in the Dallas Morning News most recent survey of Texas courses just a few spots below your beloved, and that is without having hosted panelists since its acquisition by Club Corp and the repair of extensive deferred maintenance.  Have played in the summer numerous times and it is no worse than other north Texas courses temperature wise.


The driving range and first hole are across a road a good distance from the clubhouse, and though I've walked it a couple of times, it is mostly a riding course (shuttles are used for events requiring walking- don't know about this one).  Good practice facility with short turf at both ends.  I like Weiskopf courses especially when he worked with Jay Morrish (this was a solo job), though I've generally played CR poorly.  The rough is typically much more difficult than at this time and, for whatever reason, the Tour has it playing to a par 72 with #12 as a par 5 (normally, the tournament tee there is on the second box playing as a 4; those playing the second set of tees play it from the first box as a par 5).  The zoysia fairways have been typically lush, making it a long course for most normal players.  Speith failed to qualify for the third stage of the Tour qualifier at CR before gaining status through great play on sponsor exemptions.


According to the Dallas Morning News, CR is is the fourth venue to hold the Nelson but the 10th if all the other Dallas versions of the pro tour events are included (two courses NLE).  I've spoken to a number of Trinity Forest members and I've yet to hear a regret expressed for having lost the tournament (full membership, healthy financials, outstanding club spirit).

Lou_Duran

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2021, 04:56:13 PM »
You can thank your rater buds for dropping a bag of dicks on Trinity Forrest.


No idea what this means.  TF just didn't seem to check many boxes for what the Nelson tries to accomplish.  I have it from a highly reliable source that if the then owners of the Four Seasons were willing/able to sign a five year extension to host the tournament at the time the contract came up for negotiation that the Nelson could very well still be there today.   David Craig has always wanted a big Tour event at CR.  And even though he sold the club, I am sure he is delighted.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2021, 08:37:58 PM »
minus 17 after two rounds?  Kind of like watching NFL Pro Bowl...No defense...Boring.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2021, 09:39:18 PM »
Lou:
How would you compare it to Gentle Creek? Maybe it is TV, but your club looks like a much better course( but I probably like your place a lot more than you do). Craig Ranch perhaps is a better watching course, but it reminds me of Memphis (Southwind). Is it the same grass as Trinity Forest? I guess our part of the world is a little terrain challenged.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2021, 11:37:50 PM »
minus 17 after two rounds?  Kind of like watching NFL Pro Bowl...No defense...Boring.


The cut is -6. Wow!!
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Lou_Duran

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2021, 12:38:04 PM »
Lou:
How would you compare it to Gentle Creek? Maybe it is TV, but your club looks like a much better course( but I probably like your place a lot more than you do). Craig Ranch perhaps is a better watching course, but it reminds me of Memphis (Southwind). Is it the same grass as Trinity Forest? I guess our part of the world is a little terrain challenged.


I prefer GC if it was maintained similarly (not even close).  We used to have a relationship with CR and played the course 3-4 times each year, though I haven't been there in the last three.  All of the guys I play with prefer GC, though we did lose one to CR due to conditioning issues and personal problems with the staff.  Like GC, CR is a much more difficult course for the club player than tournament amateurs and pros.  It favors the long hitter with wide fairways and the aerial game.  GC is just under 7400 from the back tees (CR is just over 7400) and the 5s play shortish for the long knocks like we're seeing at CR.  Both had the same tour consultant on the design team.


The zoysia at Trinity Forest is much newer and, apparently, has a much finer blade.  In fact, I've noticed that the Champion bermuda greens have some zoysia infestation around the edges which, though noticeable, didn't seem to affect the shot much.  I since learned that had the maintenance folks known that the TF Zoysia (as it is known) offered such a fine blade that can be cut to  green heights, they may have elected to go 100% zoysia (like Don Mahaffey did with the bermuda they chose at Wolf Point- much easier to maintain one "crop" of grass, so I was told).



CR has had trouble with its bent greens in the past- very soft, and thin in the summer while being watered frequently to keep them alive- so I thought that they may have converted to a TifEagle or similar bermuda.  Apparently they stayed with bent which does, IMO, make it much easier as a playing surface (if not for the maintenance staff).


BTW, I've played Southwind and it is a very credible test of golf.  It may not be great to look at, but while I enjoy aesthetics, I place much greater value on variety, interest, and challenge.


Your comment regarding topography in our part of the state is a bit overstated  .  Royal Dornoch, Troon, Portmarnock, TOC aren't graced by great elevation changes, but still provide compelling golf.  I am not big on mountain golf, so maybe I am just a flatlander.


Re: the scoring, let's face it, soft conditions (LCP on day 1), wide fairways, light winds, and receptive greens don't challenge tour golfers.  I don't know if the Tour has a target score for this week, but I worked the Korn Ferry event in Arlington a few weeks back and their target score was -25 (-23 won, similar cut line).  It is not unusual in high-level qualifiers to see -6 to -8 as the low 1-day number.  The gulf between the tournament players and average golfers is closer to the size of an ocean, which is probably the case in most major sports.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 12:40:46 PM by Lou_Duran »

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2021, 03:52:36 PM »
Is there any Tour Event that has had more venue changes than this one?  I didn't even realize until today it had moved...yet again!

Is this a Texas thing?  Just joshing Lou  ;D


Well, the Bob Hope has certainly had more venue changes than any other event. The Honda went through several different courses as well. Greensboro has had some different sites over the years I think. The Byron Nelson is on its third course in like 30 years...not so bad.


Greensboro has only played at 3 courses in 80 years, although it did rotate at one point. It rotated between Sedgefield and Starmount from the 30s until the early 60s, then it was only at Sedgefield until the mid 70s. Then it moved to Forest Oaks and was there for 30 years before moving back to Sedgefield.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2021, 03:59:18 PM »
I'm ashamed that I have such fond memories of what I am witnessing on TV. Korn Ferry called and they want their course back.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2021, 07:59:54 PM »
Mike, I played it years ago with Lou Duran and John K on this site.



Jeff,


That is some serious GCA Hall of Fame stuff in that quote!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2021, 08:39:26 PM »
Complaints about Craig Ranch as the site of the Byron Nelson versus Trinity Forest show a lack of understanding of the factors that go into choosing a site for a tournament.  That's probably not surprising on a discussion group focused on golf course design--rather than tournament management.
The Salesmanship Club of Dallas, who runs the Nelson, has done an incredible job of raising money for a charity focused on education.  Trinity Forest is situated in a part of town not conducive to attracting crowds for the tournament.  Attendees had to park at the Fairgrounds and be bused to the course.  That was the primary problem plain and simple.  Not everything revolves around the quality of the course--nor should it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 08:47:32 PM by Jim Hoak »

mike_beene

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2021, 11:08:37 PM »
Jim: Agree that the Nelson was not working at TF. And several people have told me how much easier Craig Ranch is. The Nelson finally has some good news after being kicked around by the tour for whatever reason. I don’t find the architecture interesting, but it is fun to see drivers and birdies once in a while. It is semi-bifurcation. But for playing certainly you prefer your place 10 days out of 10?

astavrides

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2021, 07:09:48 AM »
Why did they leave TPC Las Colinas?

mike_beene

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2021, 11:57:54 PM »
I have heard some different things so I would be speculating. Trinity Forest was developed on a service to the community type model and the Nelson was in the plans from start. It is not the serious golf fan who makes the Nelson such a great fund raiser. The casual fan was not overwhelmed by TF, and could not find what is considered safe parking or an Uber.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Craig Ranch
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2021, 04:56:32 PM »
The most credible explanation I heard came from two separate sources, a Salesmanship Club senior member who claimed to have been involved in the decision, and a man who advised on the formation and building of the TFGC.  You may recall that the Four Seasons came under the control of its lenders for a time, and they were involved in the disposition of the assets.  The story told to me at separate times was that the Salesmanship Club attempted to negotiate a five year extension to their lease with the Four Seasons, but the lenders didn't want to encumber the potential buyers with a long term obligation.  The formation and founding of TF went quickly for this sort of thing and the first Nelson there was held a year before intended, and with a year remaining in the lease with the Four Seasons.  Many predicted the eventual outcome.  I had hoped that the uniqueness of the course would gain favor, and I have heard that the players liked the course, but ultimately, the money for charity was just not there. 

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