News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Least Played Course
« on: May 12, 2021, 04:16:59 PM »

What is the least-played course in the US and/or the world? Let's assume we're talking about true 18-hole courses.


I would assume Porcupine Creek is in the conversation. The Institute isn't anymore; not that it's heavily played, but they have ~50 members now. Heronwood came up in a Google search.

(I imagine this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread and the answer may have changed anyway.)

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 04:21:56 PM »
US: Sunnylands, Rancho Mirage, CA


World: Ellerston GC, Upper Hunter Valley, NSW Australia
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 05:49:42 PM »
Great topic!  In golf it's easy to think of big numbers (e.g. how far can we hit the ball?  how long can we make the course?  how much can we charge for membership/greens fees?  how expensive can we make a driver?  how much prize money can we hand out?).  The only important time we think of how little is "what's the fewest number of strokes I can take to play this course".  So this is refreshing.


So I hope this won't be perceived as nit-picking but it seems appropriate to also consider least played "great" course".  Ellerston, according to raters, qualifies as such.  Sunnylands does not.  Moreover, Sunnylands only has eight greens so an 18 hole round has one playing at least two greens three times.  There's an RTJ Jr. private course on Long Island called Three Pond Farms that has only three fairways and four greens, so it requires even more repetition that Sunnylands.  Tiger's outsize practice facility in Jupiter has what, three greens?  I'm sure you could construct an 18 hole routing around the property but would it really count as a golf course?  I also understand Sunnylands doesn't even have a professional, so calling it a golf course in the traditional sense might be a stretch.


Other highly exclusive courses: Wolf Point, Cherokee Plantation, The Institute.  Somebody connected with Golf Digest obviously thinks very highly of Alotian, but the fact that it appears on only one of the four top 100 listings recently discussed on this site seems to imply a very small amount of play.  There's a course (owned by the Greenbergs - think AIG insurance) on the CT/NY line called Back O'Beyond that's visible across a lake from the Richter Park course, but Richter regulars say they've never seen anyone on it.  I'll finish by mentioning a perennial world top 25 course I had the privilege of playing as a high school graduation gift and I'll never forget our host member telling us the course had averaged 5 rounds per day the previous year.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 05:55:04 PM »
GWest must be right up there. Not even sure the owners play it!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 07:33:04 PM »
If you went back to the 1960's & 70's, Hominy Hill in Monmouth County, NJ would certainly have made the short list. The course was built & owned by shipping magnate Henry Mercer and used almost exclusively to entertain his business clients. I doubt the course saw more than 100 rounds a year played back then.

The course was acquired by the County Parks Department in the late 1970's and has hosted both the Men's & Women's USGA Publinx.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 07:35:17 PM »
How many people play Sweetbrier?


Sanctuary might actually be the answer to that "one round in Denver, access is no consideration" question...
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2021, 07:35:32 PM »
I don’t think Ballyhack in VA gets a ton of play. Played it and we were the only people on property. Not a massive fan of Lester George.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2021, 07:43:29 PM »
At one time this course was owned by a rather "odd" guy....might still be. But only a handful of people played here each summer....Looks as if it might be a bit more popular today.  It has an island green with a submerged cart path...photo's with the link


http://stone-henge.net/
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2021, 07:47:22 PM »
I don’t think Ballyhack in VA gets a ton of play. Played it and we were the only people on property. Not a massive fan of Lester George.
Ballyhack is overrun with play compared to most of the places mentioned.  It may not get a lot of play vs. your average course, but most of the courses being mentioned are owned by an individual and have no members, and probably go days without a round being played.

While it is off the main topic, I am curious to hear more about why you don't like Lester George.  I assume you mean the courses he has designed.  What is it that you dislike?  From what I can tell, his courses are quite varied (and generally highly regarded), so I wonder if there is a common thread among all of his courses you have played that turned you off.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2021, 08:00:57 PM »
I don’t think Ballyhack in VA gets a ton of play. Played it and we were the only people on property. Not a massive fan of Lester George.


The cottage construction at Ballyhack is epic in scope. It’s a busy place.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2021, 08:21:51 PM »
What about the Flynn-designed reversible course at Pocantico Hills owned by the Rockefeller family?


I live in the general region but I don't know a single person who has played Due Process Stables in NJ.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 08:23:34 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2021, 08:22:15 PM »
2 in Illinois would be Canyata (owned by the owner of a energy company) and Bunker Hill (no members and part of a large retreat utilized for charities primarily).  I have not played either although Canyata is accessible now via their website although when I first inquired 10 years ago it was not easy to access.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2021, 08:39:36 PM »
I don’t think Ballyhack in VA gets a ton of play. Played it and we were the only people on property. Not a massive fan of Lester George.
Ballyhack is overrun with play compared to most of the places mentioned.  It may not get a lot of play vs. your average course, but most of the courses being mentioned are owned by an individual and have no members, and probably go days without a round being played.

While it is off the main topic, I am curious to hear more about why you don't like Lester George.  I assume you mean the courses he has designed.  What is it that you dislike?  From what I can tell, his courses are quite varied (and generally highly regarded), so I wonder if there is a common thread among all of his courses you have played that turned you off.
Preface this by saying, obviously just my opinion.

Kinloch to me is inside the top 100 and not even close to being the best course in the Richmond area.  Just a great piece of property but the course lacks soul. I know he and Vinny Giles did the work, but just really an average track. The first 3 holes he redid at the Westhampton which is a CCV course really don't fit with the rest of the course at all. Just totally out of character with an old Donald Ross course. I cannot be certain I am recalling correctly, but I believe he touched up and changed the 18th and that also doesn't look or play like the others.  He was given some land at Salisbury Country club here to design a 3rd nine and those holes don't fit at all with original 18. So with you playing 9 old 9 new it's almost two totally different properties. He also took Willow Oaks, another property here locally, and made genuinely confusing off the tee at times.  I am a fan of blind tee shots but these aren't even that. I know there were some drainage issues there he needed to help with but I honestly think it was better before. Ballyhack to me had some fun holes and I think the bunkering there was better than his others, but I could never ever play it again and be just fine.  Didn't really grab me at all. To be fair, I have never played the Greenbrier and heard what he did there is well received. 

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2021, 08:41:19 PM »
I don’t think Ballyhack in VA gets a ton of play. Played it and we were the only people on property. Not a massive fan of Lester George.


The cottage construction at Ballyhack is epic in scope. It’s a busy place.
I know there is plenty of money out there, I would be curious how many rounds they do a year.

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2021, 08:59:21 PM »
How about Anne Arundel Manor? I hardly know anything of the course but from what I’ve heard it should be one of the least played.

Jon Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2021, 09:10:08 PM »
Double reply here but I would throw Pikewood national. Buddy of mine is a member, said there were 50 members? Pretty crazy. Heard it's one of the toughest walks in golf.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2021, 10:43:08 PM »
I’d say Canyata. I don’t even think anyone lives there.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2021, 01:11:56 AM »
I’d say Canyata. I don’t even think anyone lives there.


But it's public-ish at $850 a day!

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2021, 01:28:00 AM »
I played with a former asst. pro from Cypress Point in the 90's who said a busy day there was 5 foursomes.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Adam Uttley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2021, 02:02:46 AM »
GWest must be right up there. Not even sure the owners play it!
F.


Agreed, must be GWest. 

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2021, 02:26:46 AM »
My answer to this is always the Royal Golf d’Agadir in Morocco. It is located in the grounds of the royal palace in Agadir, and you need a personal invitation from Prince Moulay Rachid to play there. Tom Dunne, who got an invite, says the course is a lock for world top 100. When the European Tour’s Trophee Hassan II was played there (until it moved to the Royal Golf Dar es Salaam in Rabat four or five years ago), players reported arriving for the tournament and finding pins in precisely the locations they had been when they left the previous year.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2021, 05:44:47 AM »
Adam,


Almost certainly the correct answer.


I played the Moroccan Open here in 1995 and there wasn't a divot in sight - not even on the range. Apparently not a single player had been there in a year.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2021, 05:55:38 AM »
What about the Flynn-designed reversible course at Pocantico Hills owned by the Rockefeller family?


I live in the general region but I don't know a single person who has played Due Process Stables in NJ.


Now you do! ;D


Mike,


   The owner is on his third member purge. So long as there at least 4 people on property (not for a foursome, but for a game of "Hollywood" style Gin Rummy), the place will be busy!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2021, 07:28:52 AM »
Great topic!  In golf it's easy to think of big numbers (e.g. how far can we hit the ball?  how long can we make the course?  how much can we charge for membership/greens fees?  how expensive can we make a driver?  how much prize money can we hand out?).  The only important time we think of how little is "what's the fewest number of strokes I can take to play this course".  So this is refreshing.


So I hope this won't be perceived as nit-picking but it seems appropriate to also consider least played "great" course".  Ellerston, according to raters, qualifies as such.  Sunnylands does not.  Moreover, Sunnylands only has eight greens so an 18 hole round has one playing at least two greens three times.  There's an RTJ Jr. private course on Long Island called Three Pond Farms that has only three fairways and four greens, so it requires even more repetition that Sunnylands.  Tiger's outsize practice facility in Jupiter has what, three greens?  I'm sure you could construct an 18 hole routing around the property but would it really count as a golf course?  I also understand Sunnylands doesn't even have a professional, so calling it a golf course in the traditional sense might be a stretch.


Other highly exclusive courses: Wolf Point, Cherokee Plantation, The Institute.  Somebody connected with Golf Digest obviously thinks very highly of Alotian, but the fact that it appears on only one of the four top 100 listings recently discussed on this site seems to imply a very small amount of play.  There's a course (owned by the Greenbergs - think AIG insurance) on the CT/NY line called Back O'Beyond that's visible across a lake from the Richter Park course, but Richter regulars say they've never seen anyone on it.  I'll finish by mentioning a perennial world top 25 course I had the privilege of playing as a high school graduation gift and I'll never forget our host member telling us the course had averaged 5 rounds per day the previous year.


Phil, I’ll bite. What is the perennial Top 25 course?

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Played Course
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2021, 08:36:21 AM »
This honestly isn't even a discussion. It's Domaine LaForest in the Charlevoix region of Quebec (call it 2 hours north of Quebec City, maybe a little less). It's a Thomas McBroom design built on Paul Desmarais Sr.'s private property because Memphremagog (46 members) was too busy for him. It was only for the immediate family and their guests (I have only heard ghost stories of three four non-family members playing), but now that Paul Sr. is gone, nobody plays it because none of the family likes it and most of them still spend their time in Memphremagog. It makes Redtail look public. There's a couple photos on McBroom's website, attached below, as well as the estate for good measure. After a bit of work I'll come back and update which holes these are!









« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 08:38:38 AM by Drew Harvie »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back