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Tommy Williamsen

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Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« on: May 12, 2021, 04:48:40 PM »
This is probably a question without an answer but watching the Walker Cup I wondered what Ross would have thought about the setup. If he were to have set the course up would he have wanted the greens so fast? With the greens at warp speed would he have softened some of the edges? Are there other changes he would have made? Bunker placement? Length?


I just wonder how he, or any of the other classic architects would renovate their own courses.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Brian Finn

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Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 04:59:27 PM »
Taking into account the current equipment being used, I think the setup was practically ideal, particularly for match play.  Good shots were rewarded, indifferent and bad shots were rejected, often into spots where only a conservative recovery shot was likely to succeed.  Placing tee shots where the approach had a favorable angle and playing to the safe side of greens resulted in good scoring.  There were opportunities for eagles with two excellent shots, and doubles or worse with poor decision making or execution.  In today's game, I am not sure a course could be set up much better, and I think Donald Ross would appreciate that.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 05:36:52 PM »
Given the course was completed in 1929, and presuming the numbers from a recent post in another thread are accurate..

I'm guessing he'd be mortified seeing how severely some of those approach shots were punished with the ensuing very difficult recoveries.  The greens at the Walker Cup were stimping at what 12-13?  And the original intent was maybe 5-6.  That's not even comparable, far far beyond even apples to oranges.

The post from JPBlain:

I don't think there was a course in the world in 1950 where the greens stimped at 8. I'm guessing probably more like 4 or 5. In 1977 the USGA stimped the greens of 581 clubs in the U.S. and the fastest greens in the country were Oakmont at 9.8.
Others:
CPC: 7.8
Pebble Beach: 7.2S
FGC: 6.5
ANGC: 7.11
Medinah: 7.8
Congressional: 6.4
Oakland Hills: 8.5

Flash forward 44 years and think about what these clubs would stimp at today...Pinehurst #2: 6.10PVGC: 7.4WFW: 7.5Shinnecock: 7.2Merion: 6.4Harbour Town: 5.1
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 05:38:41 PM by Kalen Braley »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 06:53:02 PM »
Amazing a game that started as bashing an object around a large natural landscape has turned into a game where a one inch backswing is required on multiple shots per round...
unsustainable.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 07:32:20 PM »
Imagine throwing Donald in a time machine in between visits to Raleigh CC...


Taking him to Seminole to hang at a practice round last week. You arrive Tuesday evening, naturally. Host a big dinner with the teams. Everybody obviously losing their shit because they can't believe Time Machine Donald is here.


Over the course of the evening, he learns the course will play 7300 yards or whatever. Probably sees an IPhone highlight or two and realizes that these dudes swing titanium gourds really freaking hard. But like, he arrived too late to see the kids hit.


Being a golfer, he talks to them about their games. Hears the scores they shoot and how far they hit it. Shakes his head a lot. Goes to bed wondering why everybody was getting told to put a mask on as they walked up to him...


Then spends the next few days watching these dudes play golf at Seminole. I gotta think he's proud as hell of how his course still separates great play from good and good from marginal.


But hell. It's not like I knew the guy.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 09:25:30 PM »
 ;D




Jason ....in the immortal words of the Judge...top notch top notch

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2021, 01:00:26 PM »
Imagine throwing Donald in a time machine in between visits to Raleigh CC...


Taking him to Seminole to hang at a practice round last week. You arrive Tuesday evening, naturally. Host a big dinner with the teams. Everybody obviously losing their shit because they can't believe Time Machine Donald is here.


Over the course of the evening, he learns the course will play 7300 yards or whatever. Probably sees an IPhone highlight or two and realizes that these dudes swing titanium gourds really freaking hard. But like, he arrived too late to see the kids hit.


Being a golfer, he talks to them about their games. Hears the scores they shoot and how far they hit it. Shakes his head a lot. Goes to bed wondering why everybody was getting told to put a mask on as they walked up to him...


Then spends the next few days watching these dudes play golf at Seminole. I gotta think he's proud as hell of how his course still separates great play from good and good from marginal.


But hell. It's not like I knew the guy.


You might be right, but I wonder if he might also say, "I wish the greens would not punish some decent bunker shots with perdition, but that they slowed the greens down a bit so that each downhill shot or putt didn't need to be hit so defensively."
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 01:45:18 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2021, 01:20:36 PM »
I may be wrong, but i'm guessing when an architect designs greens these days, they have a fairly specific range in mind to be maintained at.  So its not a stretch to posit the ODGs would have also had something in mind, even if it wasn't called a Stimp rating for courses before 1935...and especially so when its 5-6 vs 12-13.




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2021, 01:49:05 PM »
I may be wrong, but i'm guessing when an architect designs greens these days, they have a fairly specific range in mind to be maintained at.  So its not a stretch to posit the ODGs would have also had something in mind, even if it wasn't called a Stimp rating for courses before 1935...and especially so when its 5-6 vs 12-13.


I think you are right. I don't know for sure what Smyers had in mind when he designed Four Streams, but when the greens run 9 or less there isn't as much break. There are a lot of straightish putts. When they run at 11 there is more break and the greens are more difficult to putt.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2021, 03:35:19 PM »
Tommy, I guess I'm skeptical because Seminole was designed prior to the advent of the sand wedge, and decades prior to the advent of the bunker rake. I would guess, just in my couple hours of viewing, that I saw 4 or 5 of the 100 tightest bunker shots Donald Ross would ever have witnessed.


As for the greens, I'd guess he'd be surprised at their speed. But after spending four hours or so on Tuesday night hearing "And wow, man, this is the toughest set of greens. And I know you like tough greens! I couldn't believe the ones at Pinehurst, but these really take the cake," and other such fawning superlatives...


... and then after showing up on the range before practice rounds Wednesday and watching these dudes fire bullet after bullet and thinking "Yikes, they're going to shoot one of those damn 61s on my Seminole!"...


... but then seeing how the greens continue to defend the course against skilled but undisciplined play... well, I remain skeptical but we really don't have any clue do we?


I just know what I think. That it's really hard to make strategy and angles and disciplined play matter for elite level players, but that Seminole did it last weekend. And did it sternly, but without descending into what I would call ridiculousness. Your mileage may vary, and Ross likely never envisioned greens running quite that fast. But like, Doak and Coore and Collins definitely can envision greens running that fast on their courses, and they haven't started softening the edges of their putting surfaces or worrying about the chance that someone will hit a short shot defensively.


So maybe Donald would've gone back to Raleigh and softened some slopes. But I sorta like to think he'd have come away with more conviction in the value of stern slopes and hazards than ever, as necessary ingredients to challenge future players.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2021, 04:54:57 PM »
Jason, I haven't been back to Raleigh since the latest renovation. With the new grass were there changes to the slope of the greens?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2021, 12:18:10 AM »
I bet he would be hung up on the air conditioning in the clubhouse .

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2021, 08:33:11 AM »
 8)


Only played Seminole once way back in 1984. Got rained out on the 14th tee ,  :'( :'( :'( :'(


It seemed so easy that day , no wind greens not crazy fast but I still loved the contours and imagined it being much more difficult. However would have had a hard time thinking that the best amateurs in the world would be so challenged there.


Isn't firm and fast a better challenge than 6 inch rough?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2021, 09:22:30 AM »
It's really that' isn't it?


You could either set up the course so difficult that mortals couldn't/wouldn't finish...or you could let the immortals shoot numbers so low as to be incomprehensible.


Most setups for big time events try to tread somewhere in between but it's not too easy.


I will say, what we saw is not far from how the members play the course regularly so there is that.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ross, Seminole, and the Walker Cup setup
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2021, 01:04:09 PM »
I don't know about daily play, but it was certainly more difficult than the course I played. I saw some bunker shots that were only a few feet past the pin roll off the green. I heard a number of times the announcers declare, "that was a good shot" only to seem them end up thirty yards off the green. I can't think Ross would have been happy about some of the shots that were repelled to nastily.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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