[ward peyronnin]

I thoroughly enjoyed and much appreciated the opportunity to watch much of the WC via television. Many cracking matches and pretty thrilling until well towards the end.
Since I have personally witnessed 7 WCs I felt somewhat qualified to offer up the following observations:
Supposedly caddie assignments were drawn out of a hat but seriously Haagestad's mutt and Jeff caddie draw was a hoot; at least a foot height differential.

IDK who was in charge of spectator marshalling but fans were in areas they never should have been( spectator blocked a GBI ball from entering hazard left of 18 green on a 10' wide strip of grass) and people were crossing fairways as players tried to hit and a red hat lanyard dude was loping across 17 tee when a player was over his ball- hell there were only four matches in play so where was he? Anyway " a bit of dodgy marshalling' as i heard exclaimed at Royal County Down.
We will ever know which caterer poisoned the whole field? I certainly would avoid their hot dogs if I knew. Didn't see catering listed in the credits.
The GBI boys certainly know how to flight the ball but the yanks are getting better. I love to play that shot and I began to notice the lads successfully executing that shot on 17 still finished and the boys flaring right sawed it off about waist high. I need to practice with that thought more in mind.
Anybody else see something they wish to call to attention?

[William_G]

love how some "cart" heroes got to some inexplicable locations as if they had climbed Mount Everest, LOL
no doubt a tight place
should have limited carts even further
the course was the "star""
that was real "golf"
need to hit the shot, very little bail out at Seminole

[Jeff Schley]

https://golf.com/travel/solo-walk-around-seminole-golf-club/
Some insights from a solo stroll.  Would be a real treat for anyone.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

https://golf.com/travel/solo-walk-around-seminole-golf-club/
Some insights from a solo stroll.  Would be a real treat for anyone.

All I know is I found myself several times regretting I didn't pay the $300 ticket fee and make the trip as planned. The course looked awesome, weather appeared perfect, and with small crowds you could get very close to the action.


I've heard the word "over rated" about Seminole more than just about any other top 20 course. Maybe its feels different on the ground and playing it, but on TV it looked spectacular

[Tommy Williamsen]

Actually, I think it is better on the ground after my one and only play. The greens were not as firm and fast when I played it. If they were I probably would still be out there. For a flat course it doesn't feel flat especially around the greens. If you played there every day you handicap would travel very well.

[William_G]

the work done there by C&C was fantastic
the bunkers restored
the new tees
and all the native areas cleared of foliage etc...
awesome

[Jason Thurman]

I'm with Ryan. The Walker Cup provided my first best look at Seminole, and I absolutely loved it.


Even through just a few hours watching a few holes on tv, I understand Hogan's "If you can play here, you can play anywhere" sentiments.


Did anybody do any math to figure out what kind of medal scores these guys would've been shooting? While it seemed like I was always watching either 17 or 18, both very tough holes, it sure seemed like I saw a lot of punishment doled out.


I have an affinity for "fine line" courses, where great outcomes might be separated from awful ones by just a few inches on any given shot. Seminole appears to deliver that in spades.


Hammer is a hell of a clutch putter. Personally I don't think I could putt at all if I addressed the ball with those horrid patent leather bowling shoes standing 7 inches from my stroke path.


I'm American, but had a really hard time not rooting for the GB&I guys. It's just preposterous how painfully slowly our guys played by comparison.


The food poisoning/stomach virus debacle stinks, but it opened the door for Jake Bolton's heroics at the end of his foursomes match Saturday. Following his awful tee shot on 17 with a 35 footer to win the hole, and then striping that shot from the range to a few feet... well, it was one of those moments where I forgot my patriotic duty and couldn't help smiling for an Englishman.

[Anthony Fowler]

I watched the extended highlights of each session, and the course looked fantastic! While the PGA Tour insists on benign setups that lend themselves to lots of birdies, the USGA and Seminole had no problem embarrassing some of the best players in the world.


I do wonder if they went too far in a few instances. The combination of the wind, hole locations, and firm and fast conditions meant that the players sometimes had no bailout, and no margin for error, and no chance for recovery. In a few of the sessions, you had to hit a near-perfect shot on 17, and if you missed your spot by 2 yards on either side, you'd probably have a near-impossible pitch/bunker shot.

As viewers and competitors, presumably, we want to see the course setup distinguish between good and marginal shots, good and marginal strategy, etc., which is why I personally tend to prefer a USGA setup over a PGA Tour setup. But if we go too far, such that even the good shots and good strategy are punished and the outcome is arbitrary, that's not enjoyable for anyone. I'm not saying this applied to the entire event, but I did worry that there were a few instances that crossed that line this weekend.

I'm generally someone who is happy to see the elite players challenged. While others complained about Round 3 at Shinnecock during the 2018 U.S. Open, I thought it was a blast to watch. So even acknowledging that I have a sadistic side when it comes to high-level golf events, I felt bad for the players in the Walker Cup and thought it went just a little too far over the line.

The one saving grace was that it was match play and the worst one could do was lose a hole. If this had been a medal play event, I think the reactions would be much more negative.

For the record, I would absolutely love to play Seminole in those conditions. I'd just prefer that I not have to keep score and that none of it be on television!

[jeffwarne]

No real opinion on whether it was actually "over the line" or not-but- I no longer think we can use the words "architectural intent" in describing such a presentation.


Has any of the slope on the greens at Seminole been neutered over time to suit modern(or whatever the heck that was yesterday) speeds?

[Stewart Abramson]

It was really fun to watch. Have we seen greens that fast since Phil hit his moving putt at Shinnecock at the 2018 U.S. Open? Some pretty good shots got some pretty bad results. It's a shame more golf fans didn't watch it. I played in an outing this morning and most of the players watched Rory in Charlotte and didn't even know the Walker Cup was played over the weekend

[MClutterbuck]

Apart from the bad marshalling, i was surprised that 20+ team members were entering greens to celebrate match wins. When greens are so on the edge, having 20 folks stepping on them is not good for their health. Greens should be a no enter zone for other than players and caddies.

[William_G]

Apart from the bad marshalling, i was surprised that 20+ team members were entering greens to celebrate match wins. When greens are so on the edge, having 20 folks stepping on them is not good for their health. Greens should be a no enter zone for other than players and caddies.

the greens will have plenty of time to heal
typically these type of events, the greens are almost dead at the end
just the way Jimmy Dunne wanted it, plus a little breeze
those 20+ folks all looked very fit to me, not your normal obese human
the bad marshaling was odd for sure

[ward peyronnin]

I did start leaning towards the GBiers. That Flanagan kid hit before the camera guys panned away from the Yanks shot several times and others on their side played quickly as well. Put the ball down Step up to puts and Bam.

The Irish duo were obviously authentic Paddies as they were having a blast and playing like it. I thought their Coach was a class act yet scrappy as he interacted with the American players and his own. Jason I admit i did covet a pair of those shoes but that what they make polarizing sunglasses for aye?

[Anthony Fowler]

No real opinion on whether it was actually "over the line" or not-but- I no longer think we can use the words "architectural intent" in describing such a presentation.

This is a great point. I don't think Donald Ross ever imagined that an approach to 18 that landed on the right third of the green would result in a 50-yard pitch from the driving range.

Advances in agronomy pose an interesting dilemma for people like us who love classic architecture (I know we've discussed it before, but it seems worth bringing up again). It's really fun to play on firm and fast turf. But when the greens and surrounds are so much faster than the original architect imagined, we might lose some of the strategic value and original intent.

Here are 3 potential responses to this dilemma:
1. Alter (that is, flatten) the greens and surrounds to make them play more like the original architect intended but with faster conditions. Personally, I think it would be a shame to lose or alter a green of historic value.
2. Soften and slow the conditioning. Most clubs and golfers don't want to do that because firm and fast conditions are really fun, and a lot of people--perhaps unfortunately--equate green speed with prestige and quality.
3. Let the course play completely differently than the original architect intended.

None of the solutions are obviously superior and I suspect reasonable people on this site would have good-faith disagreements. I think I would advocate for some combination of 2 and 3. Maybe the Walker Cup is a good opportunity to run wild with option 3 and see how the players can handle the challenge.

[Matt_Cohn]

It made me think about how the challenge of Seminole and so many other old courses has changed over the years. A course like Seminole in 1950, I think, would have been really tough tee to green and then challenging but not crazy on and around the greens, back when they ran at 8 on the stimp. Now these courses are way easier tee to green because of equipment, and crazy on and around the greens because of green speeds. I was at Spyglass last week having similar thoughts. It’s just different.

[Tim Gallant]

I thoroughly enjoyed and much appreciated the opportunity to watch much of the WC via television. Many cracking matches and pretty thrilling until well towards the end.
Since I have personally witnessed 7 WCs I felt somewhat qualified to offer up the following observations:
Supposedly caddie assignments were drawn out of a hat but seriously Haagestad's mutt and Jeff caddie draw was a hoot; at least a foot height differential.

IDK who was in charge of spectator marshalling but fans were in areas they never should have been( spectator blocked a GBI ball from entering hazard left of 18 green on a 10' wide strip of grass) and people were crossing fairways as players tried to hit and a red hat lanyard dude was loping across 17 tee when a player was over his ball- hell there were only four matches in play so where was he? Anyway " a bit of dodgy marshalling' as i heard exclaimed at Royal County Down.

Ward,


Having been to the WC, I am nervous/curious to see how they marshall things at the Old Course. A few tricky bits - around the turn, how do they control traffic while still keeping the WC feel that everyone loves? Also, how do they keep people off the course in general when there are so many entry points to the course?

[William_G]

I thoroughly enjoyed and much appreciated the opportunity to watch much of the WC via television. Many cracking matches and pretty thrilling until well towards the end.
Since I have personally witnessed 7 WCs I felt somewhat qualified to offer up the following observations:
Supposedly caddie assignments were drawn out of a hat but seriously Haagestad's mutt and Jeff caddie draw was a hoot; at least a foot height differential.

IDK who was in charge of spectator marshalling but fans were in areas they never should have been( spectator blocked a GBI ball from entering hazard left of 18 green on a 10' wide strip of grass) and people were crossing fairways as players tried to hit and a red hat lanyard dude was loping across 17 tee when a player was over his ball- hell there were only four matches in play so where was he? Anyway " a bit of dodgy marshalling' as i heard exclaimed at Royal County Down.

Ward,


Having been to the WC, I am nervous/curious to see how they marshall things at the Old Course. A few tricky bits - around the turn, how do they control traffic while still keeping the WC feel that everyone loves? Also, how do they keep people off the course in general when there are so many entry points to the course?

well for one, there will no doubt be less cart/buggy heroes running around like it was the Monaco Grand Prix, LOL

[Jason Thurman]

Ward, I could see you in those shoes. I don't always personally desire to raid your wardrobe, but I do admire your ability to play damn good golf while your attire screams at you.


Anthony makes a good observation - a course with greens and surrounds like Seminole must inevitably either change the surfaces to accommodate modern green speeds, or allow modern agronomy to change how the greens and surrounds affect play vs the effect they had when originally designed.


The thing I like about a course with greens like Seminole's in the current age of agronomy: they give the course a certain baked-in flexibility.


I can't imagine that the greens are QUITE that unforgiving for daily play. Even rolling a foot or two slower would greatly expand the surface area of a green that will hold a ball, while still rewarding the smart player who anticipates bounces and rolls and chooses more conservative targets.


And the old "green visited in regulation" term that's apparently used so frequently among the membership reflects that it's a course where a player's understanding of how the ball will react on the putting surface is just as important as hitting said surface.


To me, that's fundamental to really excellent architecture. And dialing up the emphasis just a bit for some of the world's best amateurs seems very appropriate. We golf in an era where modern equipment has almost eliminated strategy on most courses. It's not surprising that, when confronted with a course that demands well-considered and not just well-struck shots, some ugly outcomes would ensue. It'd be one thing if good play wasn't being rewarded, but I didn't see that in my limited viewing. I saw undisciplined and/or imprecise play being punished, but I saw plenty of well-played shots rewarded as well.

[John Blain]

It made me think about how the challenge of Seminole and so many other old courses has changed over the years. A course like Seminole in 1950, I think, would have been really tough tee to green and then challenging but not crazy on and around the greens, back when they ran at 8 on the stimp. Now these courses are way easier tee to green because of equipment, and crazy on and around the greens because of green speeds. I was at Spyglass last week having similar thoughts. It’s just different.

Matt-
I don't think there was a course in the world in 1950 where the greens stimped at 8. I'm guessing probably more like 4 or 5. In 1977 the USGA stimped the greens of 581 clubs in the U.S. and the fastest greens in the country were Oakmont at 9.8. Others:
CPC: 7.8
Pebble Beach: 7.2
SFGC: 6.5
ANGC: 7.11
Medinah: 7.8
Congressional: 6.4
Oakland Hills: 8.5
Flash forward 44 years and think about what these clubs would stimp at today...
Pinehurst #2: 6.10
PVGC: 7.4
WFW: 7.5
Shinnecock: 7.2
Merion: 6.4
Harbour Town: 5.1
 

[Niall C]

I watched the second half of the last day live on TV and also thoroughly enjoyed both the play and the course. A very well done to the US team who were worthy winners and commiseration to the GBI team who put up a decent fight. Unlike others I didn't see any difference in the teams in terms of pace of play and on the whole I enjoyed how they pretty well got on with it. The game also seemed to be played in the right spirit which was good to see.


In terms of the course, I don't think I'd ever seen it before on TV and thought it looked fantastic. I'd have liked to have seen a bit more of the earlier holes but that was either the coverage or I wasn't tuned in early enough. Was the set up over the top ? Possibly but given how aggressive these guys were I don't think it spoiled the show but rather added to it. I don't know if we got the same commentary in the UK as in the US but american commentators kept referring to the greens being 14 plus and quicker than the Masters. They also claimed this was the normal set-up which I took with a huge pinch of salt. If they kept the greens at those speeds for any length of time I suspect they would quickly be lost.


Niall

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