[Jim_Coleman]

   One can walk and carry, even if a caddy is available, but you pay a fee. It’s a vestige of Covid - when there were no caddies, players could walk for free.  The members loved it. Post Covid, caddies are back but the members prefer to carry - much cheaper but not free.

[Mike_Trenham]

We have times during the day in season that it’s required to have a cart or a caddie.  If the course is closed to cart traffic due to weather and a caddie is not available a trail fee applies. 


It very rare with 12 hours notice that our caddiemaster can’t have a caddie available.

I could understand having a fee go to the club for providing a caddie(caddie management costs-and there are real costs)
but I really can't understand a fee for caddie mismanagement.(if I can't provide you a caddie you pay extra?)

Jeff- there are people who always take a cart yet when it rains they suddenly have the strength to carry their clubs 18 holes over wet ground. 

[jeffwarne]

We have times during the day in season that it’s required to have a cart or a caddie.  If the course is closed to cart traffic due to weather and a caddie is not available a trail fee applies. 


It very rare with 12 hours notice that our caddiemaster can’t have a caddie available.

I could understand having a fee go to the club for providing a caddie(caddie management costs-and there are real costs)
but I really can't understand a fee for caddie mismanagement.(if I can't provide you a caddie you pay extra?)

Jeff- there are people who always take a cart yet when it rains they suddenly have the strength to carry their clubs 18 holes over wet ground.

The same was true in Covid when clubs were closed.Miracles abounded.


But I still fail to see how a fee should be charged for failing to provide what is asked for(no caddy available)
and a cart is understandably not an option.


I completely understand running short on caddies due to no carts-I just don't understand how you then tell the member he has to pay to walk when it was his third choice.
I simply wouldn't charge him in that case, the same as I wouldn't charge a member for a cart(that he didn't ask for) if we were to run short on caddies. Which doesn't happen but if it did, that's how I would handle.

[Mike_Trenham]

Jeff - I am referring to members who never support the caddy program.  They never take a caddy.  They play games to avoid having to pay for a caddy.  It’s a game inside the game for them.


Believe me our caddiemaster could find them a looper if requested with a bit of notice. 


Plus the members who support the caddy program all year should not be punished by playing in the rain with no aid because the usual cart riders playing early took all they caddies we supported no matter the weather.

[V. Kmetz]

This conversation is pretty nuts, pretty OT, entirely meaningless... random people getting indignant from afar on the infinitesimally petty economic policies of unnamed private clubs they will never play, that they are not a member of.  It's like the stink of social media at its fullest. Just griping to gripe.


What the hell is it to you? 


And for chrrissakes, if you fear this, get some perspective; you're a member at a private golf club that only you and your fellows members can play;  if the trail fee is pushing your wallet uncomfortably, or if this is a point of competition by which you might bounce, you're in the wrong private club, more likely you shouldn't be in the private club market at all.


You don't have to embrace my view, but I hold that if you can't take the yearly nut that it takes to belong to whatever private country club that you can "tolerate," (it seems), and throw it in the fireplace without crying or insomnia, then you shouldn't be there in the first place.  Get back to the publics, cop as many tees, divot tools and markers as you can on your way back.


This is my 40th year working for a variety of private clubs and I've seen the bean counters, the people who Mike T is describing in his latest follow up post, and they are usually effin miserable. Meanwhile there are also people of better means, who either through disposition or those means, won't even know what you're talking about.  They are usually happy.


And if anyone is actually "suffering" an injustice for themselves because of such a policy at their club, then why not ask the board, the golf comm, or the management why the fee exists? They will explain it to you.


I'll leave it to those authorities to dispense their information individually, but unvarnished, I would say. "We have to get by when you're not here; you're not the only one who has needs, wants and expectations of this place... we have to keep carts and/or caddies because they are services we have to have on hand at all times, because someone else's idea of their membership, as equally valid as your own, includes it... There's 200...250...400...500? of them and only one of you."

Jeff- there are people who always take a cart (if its a matter of caddie support, know that in the metropolitan district, it's fairly standard to still assign forecaddies to those cart rounds) yet when it rains they suddenly have the strength to carry their clubs 18 holes over wet ground

[Kyle Harris]

I don't make it a personal policy to spend discretionary income on things I don't want.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff - I am referring to members who never support the caddy program.  They never take a caddy.  They play games to avoid having to pay for a caddy.  It’s a game inside the game for them.


Believe me our caddiemaster could find them a looper if requested with a bit of notice. 


Plus the members who support the caddy program all year should not be punished by playing in the rain with no aid because the usual cart riders playing early took all they caddies we supported no matter the weather.

Interesting take.I see your point.
I've seen the same problem where members who aren't great supportors want the best caddies come Tournaments.
We have a different opinion and we implemented an outside the box solution which our caddies, members, ownership and staff felt was win-win-win.
I'd be happy to share it offline.Seems open discussion has gotten personal for some.
FYI, our caddies embraced the idea as they absolutely killed it since we implemented it.


Clubs relying on cart revenue are often the underlying reason why caddy programs struggle, so it has to work for ownership, which in many cases is the membership itself.

[SB]

This goes back to the age old problem of everyone wanting everyone else to subsidize their play.


Retired guys that play 150 rounds a year think dues should include everything.
Working guys that play 20 rounds a year want low dues and high usage fees.
Walkers don't think their rounds count.
Heavy cart users want dues to include unlimited cart usage or should be priced at the actual cost
Seniors think there should be senior discounts even though they play more than anyone and have more money than young people
People who work think they should pay less because they play less even though they have incomes.
People that hang at the bar think that drinks should be cheap because its part of the "culture"
People that live nearby don't want to encourage the drunks at the bar.
Caddie users think the club should financially discourage carts.  Cart users think caddies should be financially discouraged


COVID was interesting in that exposed many of the flaws in ways that clubs structure their dues.


For example, a club I know has a lot of walkers and a membership that includes unlimited cart usage.  With COVID, play is up dramatically, like at most clubs.  But expenses are up, due to increased maintenance costs dealing with the extra play, increased cleaning costs, lower bar profits and increased staffing costs because now weekday afternoons are busy where before it was empty, yet revenue is not up because everyone walks or does not pay for carts.  So profits are down.  Go figure.


I personally believe there should always be some relationship between usage and cost, not 100% like a public course, but there should be some relationship.  The guy playing 150 rounds should not pay the same as the guy playing 20 rounds (and you would be surprised how many members only play 20 rounds a year).  The best way to do that is to charge each person some amount for using space on the first tee, whether they are walking, taking a cart, or a caddy.  One man's opinion.

[A.G._Crockett]

This is mostly semantics, isn't it? 


While it might be a poor choice of terms, the bottom line is that clubs with this policy are no different than any other club or course with higher fees on the weekend, or that charge the same amount whether you walk or ride.  It's about revenue, and as long as the management is honest about that, I don't see the problem.  It's no different than minimums, assessments, or the infamous Mill River Plan in that regard.


My former club in GA had a "trail fee" policy for walkers during Daylight Savings Time; you paid an extra $10, or half a cart fee, on weekends before noon.  As soon as Standard Time returned, the fee disappeared until the next spring.  The management was very honest about; it was a matter of revenue, and they didn't try to muddy the water with pace of play BS. 


It's a far, far better policy than either requiring a cart on weekend mornings, or for charging the same amount whether you walk or ride, at least IMO.  By contrast, the membership I have now in NC gives me 10 guest passes per year that can be used any day of the week, including weekend mornings, BUT if I bring a guest then they have to pay a full cart fee even if they walk. 

[Dave Doxey]

I just want to play golf.  Courses or clubs tell me what it costs and I make a decision on where to play.

[David Wuthrich]

I agree, tell me how much it is, and go from there.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Many clubs that I know include cart fees in the dues. It sure makes it easy.

[SL_Solow]

Tommy,  of course that practice, building in cart fees, discourages walking.  Those of us that belong to clubs with a walking culture, particularly those with a healthy caddy program, would find that more than problematic.

[V. Kmetz]

Tommy,  of course that practice, building in cart fees, discourages walking.  Those of us that belong to clubs with a walking culture, particularly those with a healthy caddy program, would find that more than problematic.

But it's not your club SLS..., and if yours has a healthy walking culture, it would never reach the shores of a decision to impose/roll in a trail or cart fee... so where's the problem?

[SL_Solow]

Vinny,  Of course you are correct.  Each club can make its own rules.  Of course if the club is not member owned, the owner decides. If the owner makes a decision that members don't like, such as building in cart fees for walkers, they can (literally) vote with their feet.  Sorry but I couldn't resist.  (and you are correct)

[V. Kmetz]

Vinny,  Of course you are correct.  Each club can make its own rules.  Of course if the club is not member owned, the owner decides. If the owner makes a decision that members don't like, such as building in cart fees for walkers, they can (literally) vote with their feet.  Sorry but I couldn't resist.  (and you are correct)

Then you and I have the same understanding/perspective... and I was encouraged to see other posters earlier today and later yesterday advance the principle that "just tell me what the rules/costs/caddie/cart/walking policies are, and I can take it from there."

[Peter Sayegh]

   Some public courses charge green fees that include carts; take one if you wish.  Clubs charge for carts or push carts; rent one if you’d like.  Paying your club to walk is essentially paying a green fee, which your dues should cover IMHO.

Jim, didn't want this to get buried. 99% of my rounds have been played on public/muni courses. In thirty years, exactly TWO have asked if I would be riding or walking upon check-in. Such is the culture that the cart is baked into the fee cake. Good luck trying to get them to allow you to walk/push at a lesser rate. I thought you brought up a great point. Simply, why?


V. Kmetz, public or private, I think all of us here should question (give hell about) the policy in the OP.

[V. Kmetz]

Jim, didn't want this to get buried. 99% of my rounds have been played on public/muni courses. In thirty years, exactly TWO have asked if I would be riding or walking upon check-in. Such is the culture that the cart is baked into the fee cake. Good luck trying to get them to allow you to walk/push at a lesser rate. I thought you brought up a great point. Simply, why?

V. Kmetz, public or private, I think all of us here should question (give hell about) the policy in the OP.

Why? On a private basis, there's a lot of stuff "baked into the cake" that I wouldn't want to pay for... If you don't like it for yourself, don't play there... What is going to happen if we give two sh**s about it, or not happen if we don't?  And you don't need to ask why, one's own long history on this board should give you the answer... for money to support and utilization of all the offerings the authority or the owner or the members provide to all the players, members.


To me the far greater harm is a course that doesn't permit carts...next is those that limit them to age or medical exemption... THATS shutting people out for somebody's inscrutable "tyranny" (walking is required) of opinion. As others have said, I believe most of the disaffected posters are playing semantics with the fee structure and what the nomenclature is... bottom line, a course wants/wishes/bakes in carts because more people can play with carts, so they need them on hand and their bottom line is better. Period.

[Kalen Braley]

   Some public courses charge green fees that include carts; take one if you wish.  Clubs charge for carts or push carts; rent one if you’d like.  Paying your club to walk is essentially paying a green fee, which your dues should cover IMHO.

Jim, didn't want this to get buried. 99% of my rounds have been played on public/muni courses. In thirty years, exactly TWO have asked if I would be riding or walking upon check-in. Such is the culture that the cart is baked into the fee cake. Good luck trying to get them to allow you to walk/push at a lesser rate. I thought you brought up a great point. Simply, why?

V. Kmetz, public or private, I think all of us here should question (give hell about) the policy in the OP.

Peter,

That's interesting.  95% of my rounds played have also been on public access courses and my experience has been exactly the opposite.  Perhaps there are regional differences, (I live in the Western US and have played extensively in Washington, Utah, and California), but i'm pretty much always asked that except in the case of a few hilly courses when carts are mandatory.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,  of course that practice, building in cart fees, discourages walking.  Those of us that belong to clubs with a walking culture, particularly those with a healthy caddy program, would find that more than problematic.

I just don't like being nickeled and dimed. I still walk some especially at my home course. I'd rather just pay it all up front. But you're right paying a acrt fee with dues does discourage walking.

[SB]

   Some public courses charge green fees that include carts; take one if you wish.  Clubs charge for carts or push carts; rent one if you’d like.  Paying your club to walk is essentially paying a green fee, which your dues should cover IMHO.

Jim, didn't want this to get buried. 99% of my rounds have been played on public/muni courses. In thirty years, exactly TWO have asked if I would be riding or walking upon check-in. Such is the culture that the cart is baked into the fee cake. Good luck trying to get them to allow you to walk/push at a lesser rate. I thought you brought up a great point. Simply, why?


V. Kmetz, public or private, I think all of us here should question (give hell about) the policy in the OP.

As the owner of a public golf course, I'll answer that.  It comes down to what the cost of the cart is and what it is that I am selling. 


What I am selling is space on the first tee.  Whether you walk, ride, or crawl, I have four spots every 10 minutes that I am selling.  Everyone should pay the same but for the additional cost of sending out the cart. 


The truth of the cost of the carts is that I already have the carts because most people take them.  I already have the cart barn and the cart paths and the people to clean them.  Everything about carts is a fixed cost.  The only actual difference when you walk up to the counter and decide to take a cart or not is the $1.00 in electricity or gas it takes to send them out.  That's it.   Can I encourage walkers which might improve turf conditions a little?  Sure, but the truth is that I'm not going to move the needle enough to make a big enough impact.  The % of people who take a cart is largely driven by how hilly the course is, the pricepoint (the higher the price, the more people expect and want carts) and location - walking is bigger in the northeast and northwest.  Here in the south, everyone takes carts, so a massive discount to go from 10% walkers to 15% walkers doesn't work.  I know, I've tried.  That's why most courses have one price whether you take a cart or not.

[Peter Sayegh]

[quote author=V. Kmetz link=topic=69696.msg1675262


Why? On a private basis, there's a lot of stuff "baked into the cake" that I wouldn't want to pay for... If you don't like it for yourself, don't play there... What is going to happen if we give two sh**s about it, or not happen if we don't?

V,As a golfer who doesn't belong to a private club, I still find a problem with your indignation. You make it seem that private golfers/members can go down the street to get what they desire-at the fee they want. God bless them if they have the financial/logistic abilities to do so. I never said anything about precluding or restricting riding at any course.
My initial reaction to Jim's post is just how preposterous that would seem to a casual/non golfer. So, that's my two shits

[Peter Sayegh]

SBusch,thanks for the info.

[V. Kmetz]

V,As a golfer who doesn't belong to a private club, I still find a problem with your indignation. You make it seem that private golfers/members can go down the street to get what they desire-at the fee they want. God bless them if they have the financial/logistic abilities to do so. I never said anything about precluding or restricting riding at any course.
My initial reaction to Jim's post is just how preposterous that would seem to a casual/non golfer. So, that's my two shits

I'm the farthest thing from a private club golfer of means... I'm simply reacting to indignation of slow-to-realize people who are not getting that the socio-economic conditions of course operation are forever seeking the maximum efficiency of revenue, that's the world we ALL made...like one is now looking for justice in the policies of a particular course from afar?  Why did this opinion require broadcast to us...go speak to the Board or the Committee or the owner


Indignation at a trail fee?  Ever see the indignation when there's not a cart and/or caddy available when almost everyone else has one?


Where's the indignation (also from afar) that some courses were BUILT to preclude cart usage, or humiliate you to claim a medical exemption to use one?... And often, they're damn proud of it.  It's like going to an Asian restaurant and forced to use chopsticks.  As awful and exclusionary as that is, do you see me railing about the injustice of it?... No, I'm just not going to play there myself, there's plenty of fish in the sea... that's my two shits...what is having an opinion on this OT piece, even worth?

[Tim Leahy]

Where's the indignation (also from afar) that some courses were BUILT to preclude cart usage, or humiliate you to claim a medical exemption to use one?... And often, they're damn proud of it.  It's like going to an Asian restaurant and forced to use chopsticks.  As awful and exclusionary as that is, do you see me railing about the injustice of it?... No, I'm just not going to play there myself, there's plenty of fish in the sea... that's my two shits...what is having an opinion on this OT piece, even worth?

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