[Carl Nichols]

My club charges a trail fee on weekends and holidays before 11am.  We adopted it for various reasons, primarily to help preserve our modest caddie program by narrowing the cost difference between taking a caddie and walking without one,  and also to ensure we didn't lose cart revenue on which we had become dependent.  I wish we didn't have the rule, but to V.Kmetz's point, it's very transparent and people who have a real problem with the choice can avoid it altogether by not playing on weekend mornings.


We also don't allow push carts all the time, which is another rule that I disagree with.   I wonder how many people here who hate trail fees are ok with rules against push carts?

[Michael Dugger]

This Trail Fee notion ranks right up there with McDonalds and Taco Bell being less expensive than organic produce.


At what point is our society going to start financially rewarding healthy decision-making???


I'd just raise the rates for everyone, avoid the whole topic/conversation.  Walk or don't walk.  Same price.

[A.G._Crockett]

This Trail Fee notion ranks right up there with McDonalds and Taco Bell being less expensive than organic produce.


At what point is our society going to start financially rewarding healthy decision-making???


I'd just raise the rates for everyone, avoid the whole topic/conversation.  Walk or don't walk.  Same price.

I'm not sure that your second and third sentences go together.  If you want to financially reward healthy decision-making, then walking has to be cheaper, doesn't it?  And trail fees are a way to both make walking cheaper AND help with the club's bottom line, aren't they?  If you make walking and riding the same price, aren't you encouraging riding and discouraging walking, at least to some extent?

If a club is honest and transparent about the purpose of a trail fee being revenue, and the amount of the trail fee is less than the price of a cart, I just don't see the problem.

[SL_Solow]

If the only choices are walking and carrying/pushing or riding, the trail fee is something of a misnomer.  There are 2 prices, one for walking and another for riding.  The "trail fee" effectively reduces the price of the cart.  If there is a caddy program and there are 3 prices, the "trail fee" effectively reduces the price of both options.  As to a prior post, I invariably walk both because I enjoy it and for the health benefits.  However I am not certain it is up to the individual course owner to decide what is in society's best interests.  A club can do so and some owners do for a variety of reasons, example given, Mike Keiser,

[John Kavanaugh]

I had a club a few years back that raised dues $100/month but made carts free. While on the surface it looks like a slam against the walkers it in reality opened up their options. Sure they still walked on most days but when they felt like riding they did that too. Mostly on the back nine. A win/win.

[Michael Dugger]

This Trail Fee notion ranks right up there with McDonalds and Taco Bell being less expensive than organic produce.


At what point is our society going to start financially rewarding healthy decision-making???


I'd just raise the rates for everyone, avoid the whole topic/conversation.  Walk or don't walk.  Same price.

I'm not sure that your second and third sentences go together.  If you want to financially reward healthy decision-making, then walking has to be cheaper, doesn't it?  And trail fees are a way to both make walking cheaper AND help with the club's bottom line, aren't they?  If you make walking and riding the same price, aren't you encouraging riding and discouraging walking, at least to some extent?

If a club is honest and transparent about the purpose of a trail fee being revenue, and the amount of the trail fee is less than the price of a cart, I just don't see the problem.

I understand what you are saying and I agree, NOT charging a trail fee, therefore making walking less expensive than riding, better supports the idea of rewarding healthy decision making.


If the trail fee is less than a cart, this makes sense.  I got the impression it was similar, however.  Might be wrong.


I'd still rather just see them raise rates, period.  Something about charging MORE for walking is unsettling. In other words, what the bloody hell is the point of even putting forth a green fee when it's MORE to walk and MORE to ride.  What exactly does one get to do, play in virtual reality, if they are not either walking or riding.  This ticky tack nick nack way of commerce is just semantics. 


 

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront in Suffolk, VA  requires a cart for $20 before 2 PM, no option. No caddy program. 
After 2PM, there are 3 options:
- cart
- walk and carry
- use your own trolley


Caveats:
-Long green to tee distances
-Very hot in the summer
-The yearly dues does not include the cart fee

[Kalen Braley]

Seems to me trail fees could be one way to normalize usage-based revenue in the private model.

If every round had a standard trail fee of say $10 per round, then the guy playing 12 times per month is adding $120 to revenue vs the guy only playing 4 times per month adding $40.  Play more, pay more!

[John Kavanaugh]

If one person controls your money no one cares what it costs.

[jeffwarne]

Seems to me trail fees could be one way to normalize usage-based revenue in the private model.

If every round had a standard trail fee of say $10 per round, then the guy playing 12 times per month is adding $120 to revenue vs the guy only playing 4 times per month adding $40.  Play more, pay more!

It does provide a way to disincentiveize cart usage(for the club)by having user fees for all.

[Kalen Braley]

Seems to me trail fees could be one way to normalize usage-based revenue in the private model.

If every round had a standard trail fee of say $10 per round, then the guy playing 12 times per month is adding $120 to revenue vs the guy only playing 4 times per month adding $40.  Play more, pay more!

It does provide a way to disincentiveize cart usage(for the club)by having user fees for all.

Jeff,

Agreed, and given the long list of GCA threads over the years endlessly dissecting the pros and cons of various membership pricing models, seems it could be one way to earn at least a bit of goodwill for the members who pay full freight and play a lot less golf.

A bit like using gas taxes for road infrastructure improvements and relying less on vehicle registration.  Use it more, pay more.

[Sean_A]

If a club charges a mandatory fee beyond the monthly dues to tee off, that is essentially a green fee couched in the language of how to travel around the course. It's a way to make people who play more pay more. Why not call it what it is? Be open and honest and tell members their dues aren't enough to cover costs. There is an expected shortfall of X amount which can be raised by charging green fees. But charge enough so that guys have the choice to walk at any time if they want. I can't get my head around telling members they must ride on certain days and times. It seems bonkers that members would allow a board to dictate how the game is played.

For a ton of US clubs I don't get the issue of guys getting uptight because some play more than others. For 300 member clubs does an added couple of thousand rounds cost a full service club more money to operate? 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

This Trail Fee notion ranks right up there with McDonalds and Taco Bell being less expensive than organic produce.


At what point is our society going to start financially rewarding healthy decision-making???


I'd just raise the rates for everyone, avoid the whole topic/conversation.  Walk or don't walk.  Same price.

I'm not sure that your second and third sentences go together.  If you want to financially reward healthy decision-making, then walking has to be cheaper, doesn't it?  And trail fees are a way to both make walking cheaper AND help with the club's bottom line, aren't they?  If you make walking and riding the same price, aren't you encouraging riding and discouraging walking, at least to some extent?

That implies that riding is a more desirable/valuable option. Is it?

[Jeff Schley]

Seems to me trail fees could be one way to normalize usage-based revenue in the private model.

If every round had a standard trail fee of say $10 per round, then the guy playing 12 times per month is adding $120 to revenue vs the guy only playing 4 times per month adding $40.  Play more, pay more!

Unfortunately this is the model at one of my clubs. $10 to NOT take a cart/caddie for members as a "trail fee". So if you walk or take a push cart it is $10 bucks. Guests have to take a cart of caddie, there is no option to carry or take a push cart. With the cart fee bumped to $27 this year, you are looking at the cart fee basically being $17 as you are paying $10 every time you play regardless.

[Jeff Schley]

Seems to me trail fees could be one way to normalize usage-based revenue in the private model.

If every round had a standard trail fee of say $10 per round, then the guy playing 12 times per month is adding $120 to revenue vs the guy only playing 4 times per month adding $40.  Play more, pay more!

It does provide a way to disincentiveize cart usage(for the club)by having user fees for all.

Jeff,

Agreed, and given the long list of GCA threads over the years endlessly dissecting the pros and cons of various membership pricing models, seems it could be one way to earn at least a bit of goodwill for the members who pay full freight and play a lot less golf.

A bit like using gas taxes for road infrastructure improvements and relying less on vehicle registration.  Use it more, pay more.

You could say gas tax, but as being from Illinois you can't really get around the Chicago without utilizing the tollways. I have no problem with those using it paying for it. They aren't supported by the state or federal government, but on users paying for it. If the drivers didn't see value in them, they wouldn't use them and thus not be able to support itself.


To compare that to golf would mean you have something you need to pay for, presumably "trails" as they are "trail fees". However these fees are only imposed when you DON'T take a cart. So either the name is a mirage as to what it is for (I think this way probably) or just bump up dues to pay for the golf course operations at private clubs. For clubs with a caddie program, it does encourage use of a caddie and a guest will have to use one if they walk. So it is a quandary as it could be for a variety of reasons (encourage caddies/take carts/etc.), but to pay for "trails" or cart paths I'm sure isn't one of them.

[A.G._Crockett]

This Trail Fee notion ranks right up there with McDonalds and Taco Bell being less expensive than organic produce.


At what point is our society going to start financially rewarding healthy decision-making???


I'd just raise the rates for everyone, avoid the whole topic/conversation.  Walk or don't walk.  Same price.

I'm not sure that your second and third sentences go together.  If you want to financially reward healthy decision-making, then walking has to be cheaper, doesn't it?  And trail fees are a way to both make walking cheaper AND help with the club's bottom line, aren't they?  If you make walking and riding the same price, aren't you encouraging riding and discouraging walking, at least to some extent?

That implies that riding is a more desirable/valuable option. Is it?

Not at all.  Trail fees are typically less than cart fees, at least in my experience.  As has been mentioned, the term comes from clubs where members who live nearby have their own carts, and pay a fee for the convenience of using them on the course. 


So if a club charges walkers $10, but a cart fee is $20, walking cheaper than riding AND the club is generating revenue from the people that use the course the most.  Again, as long as management is honest about a trail fee being a bottom line matter, I don't see the problem.


Over the last 40 years or so, I've had memberships with just about every variety of charges you can think of.  Very low dues, but you paid a few bucks when you walked or more bucks when you rode.  Mandatory carts on Saturday and Sunday morning until noon.  A trail fee for walkers on weekend mornings during DST.  Monthly dues that include unlimited cart fees at no additional charge.  By FAR, I preferred ANY other option to required carts on weekend mornings because the club put that in terms of pace of play instead of revenue, which was just complete, absolute BS, of course.

Trail fees, or whatever you want to call them, to generate revenue and that preserve walking as a cheaper option while requiring those that play more to pay more seem to me to make good sense.  I FAR prefer that to higher dues that include carts that I almost never use, which is the case with my current membership. 

[Adam Lawrence]

AG -- I was responding to your comment about making walking and riding the same price, but I realised that I misread your post

[archie_struthers]

 


Been down this road a half dozen times at least over the years.


Carts cost money to purchase and service. Typically those who benefit from the service should pay for it so assessing members to pay for others cart usage doesn't seem "fair''.


Likewise mandating walking to enhance others health seems a bit socialistic , doesn't it.


Every club has different needs and budgets. Even as I'm getting a little long in the tooth I love walking. However I'm not a trolley guy so when I walk I carry my bag. In the rare cases for me where caddies are available it's a great experience, particularly when you get a good looper. However it's not in my budget to pay $400 or $500 a week for someone to carry for me, and isn't for the majority of golfers. Just postulating here but it's probably a safe bet.


Then there is pace of play....lots of arguments as to this but most golfers can't walk and carry or push the cart near as fast as we play. It's just a fact. So , if you are lucky management at your club will come up with a flexible policy that allows walkers to have an option to walk as often as budgeting allows. Most clubs need the cart revenue at peak hours at the very least.


So , if you have a mandated cart policy at certain times and like to walk pick the least ambulatory guy in your group and throw your bag on with them. Grab a bunch of clubs and walk whenever possible, and enjoy it!

[John Kavanaugh]

If you choose to walk do not use a cart in any capacity without paying a fee. I hate the lawn jockeys who take a hitch on the long transitions.

[Carl Nichols]

As I noted above, we charge a "trail fee" only on weekend and holiday mornings, so you can also think of it as akin to congestion pricing, i.e., charging a premium for the most in-demand tee times:  If you want to play in the morning on weekends, you have to pay for a caddie, a cart, or to carry your own bag; if you want to play any other time, you can walk without a fee or pay for a cart or caddie. 

[Mike_Trenham]

If you choose to walk do not use a cart in any capacity without paying a fee. I hate the lawn jockeys who take a hitch on the long transitions.

I knew of a club where if a walker rode even just to the next tee they were subject to a cart fee if observed by the staff.

[John Kavanaugh]

The staff knows who does it and where. They just aren't motivated to create a monster by charging a fee. Some guys even sneak out to play a few holes out of sight thinking they are getting away with something. A member, who lost his business, once told me that anything 4 holes and under can't be charged. His customers must have felt the same way about his product.

[Kyle Harris]

   Some public courses charge green fees that include carts; take one if you wish.  Clubs charge for carts or push carts; rent one if you’d like.  Paying your club to walk is essentially paying a green fee, which your dues should cover IMHO.

Jim, didn't want this to get buried. 99% of my rounds have been played on public/muni courses. In thirty years, exactly TWO have asked if I would be riding or walking upon check-in. Such is the culture that the cart is baked into the fee cake. Good luck trying to get them to allow you to walk/push at a lesser rate. I thought you brought up a great point. Simply, why?


V. Kmetz, public or private, I think all of us here should question (give hell about) the policy in the OP.

As the owner of a public golf course, I'll answer that.  It comes down to what the cost of the cart is and what it is that I am selling. 


What I am selling is space on the first tee.  Whether you walk, ride, or crawl, I have four spots every 10 minutes that I am selling.  Everyone should pay the same but for the additional cost of sending out the cart. 


The truth of the cost of the carts is that I already have the carts because most people take them.  I already have the cart barn and the cart paths and the people to clean them.  Everything about carts is a fixed cost.  The only actual difference when you walk up to the counter and decide to take a cart or not is the $1.00 in electricity or gas it takes to send them out.  That's it.   Can I encourage walkers which might improve turf conditions a little?  Sure, but the truth is that I'm not going to move the needle enough to make a big enough impact.  The % of people who take a cart is largely driven by how hilly the course is, the pricepoint (the higher the price, the more people expect and want carts) and location - walking is bigger in the northeast and northwest.  Here in the south, everyone takes carts, so a massive discount to go from 10% walkers to 15% walkers doesn't work.  I know, I've tried.  That's why most courses have one price whether you take a cart or not.

I’m sorry but this is utter bullshit.


And I’m not sorry.


My fitness and health is not here to subsidize your lack thereof any more than it already does  in life.


Nor is paying for something I most vehemently do not WANT a way to retain my business.


I’m in the South and I walk. Am I not part of the everyone? Raise the rate of the cart to what it actually “costs” to let me walk. Let the lazy and petulant subsidize me.

[Peter Sayegh]

Kyle Harris: "My fitness and health is not here to subsidize your lack thereof any more than it already does  in life.
Nor is paying for something I most vehemently do not WANT a way to retain my business.
I’m in the South and I walk. Am I not part of the everyone? Raise the rate of the cart to what it actually “costs” to let me walk. Let the lazy and petulant subsidize me."

Easy there Clark Kent. I'm about to have knee surgery but I'd still love to play some golf afterwards. I may, or may not, be able to walk a full round. I honestly don't know. If I feel the need to use a cart, would that make me "lazy and petulant?" No. I would readily pay extra for the assistance/convenience.
I always thought the "greens fee" was the amount a bag carrier/push-carter was charged. Anything above that should contain surcharges. Again, good luck asking any public course what their actual "playing fee" is.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm a member of a course that is moving towards mandatory cottage stay requirements. The gnashing of teeth by fellow members who "live" within driving distance makes me almost as happy as the free carts.

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