The difference in preferences change over time

[Tommy Williamsen]

American Dunes GC opened this month. I have not been there yet but hope to when my foot heals in August.
I have played the old Grand Haven GC a dozen times. I liked it. It was narrow and put a high premium on accuracy. The greens were not particularly notable but were ok. The course is only a couple of miles from Lake Michigan and is built on sand. The course had a good reputation in the state, appeared on many best public courses in the US, but in its waning years fell on hard times.


There might not be another course in the country that has undergone such a metamorphosis.


These pictures give you an idea of the course.











Nicklaus went in, demolished the trees and uncovered large swathes of sand and dune. Pictures of the course would lead one to believe that it is on a completely different site.











If my Dad had the option to play either of the designs, he'd pick the old Grand Haven GC. Not so for folks on this site. I dare say that if American Dunes had opened in 1960 it would have had more detractors than lovers.



I mentioned on another thread that the "best" lists are just snapshots in time and are representative of a cross section of players' architectural tastes. There still are folks that would prefer the old course. I have a friend who grew up playing the old Matthews course and isn't so sure how he will like the new one.


Some courses have created love over decades, I think partly because they stand alone in their architecture. Even most of those have evolved. How many courses like Myopia Hunt Club are there?


I am eager to see where architecture will be in fifteen years when I am 90.

[Carl Rogers]

I wonder if Harbortown's reputation & ranking will have resurgence?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wonder if Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor reputation & ranking will have a resurgence?


More seriously, I wonder if golf courses are like music, in that you never really age out of what you liked as a kid, i.e., my parents liking Glenn Miller, me the Beatles, my wife with more 70's rock?  Of course, from any era, the very best are remembered.


It might be an interesting exercise to post either the "Best New" or most popular course you can remember from the year you started playing golf, and then your favorite now.  Or at least, your favorite place to play then, and see if it still holds a place in your heart.


Just random thought while drinking my morning coffee.  Another interesting thought, it's Friday, maybe I should compare my first posts of the day, pre-coffee, to those at 5PM tonight, during happy hour?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I expect it would be natural to find new courses your favorites as you expand out your playing experience, no? 


As you know, my first course was Medinah, which I did hold as a standard for a while.  Later, my tastes trended toward the aesthetic and not so hard. 


Some of the change away from Medinah came from its disdain on this site, LOL, which only goes to prove some of our changing preferences may be based on wanting to be part of the in crowd.  How many of us would stand up and proclaim their love for a much maligned design, for fear of getting shot down.

[Tom_Doak]

I wonder if Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor reputation & ranking will have a resurgence?

I think I put a pretty good dent in that one.  Plus, "resurgence" is too strong a word; apart from their own p.r. not many people professed to like it.

[Jason Thurman]

This is an interesting concept that I think about often.


As much as naturalism and minimalism have defined the "buzzworthy" courses over the last 25 years or so, it's inevitable that tastes will move away from them, and then back, and then away again for as long as golf continues to be a thing.


Even in that 25 year period of booming Naturalism/Minimalism, we've seen a shift. There's a big difference between Sand Hills/Pac Dunes and Sweetens Cove, with a through-line between those styles that probably runs through courses like Kingsley, Dismal White, and maybe even places like Black Creek.


It feels like the Harbourtown resurgence is already happening. And the cognoscenti on this forum consistently underrates parkland designs that put a value on accuracy, like the old Grand Haven and most courses from the "dark ages." Inevitably though, some of those courses are pretty damn fun to play, visually attractive, and full of interesting shots.


I played a couple courses last fall that I really enjoyed. Mammoth Dunes was one of them, but so was the Schoolmaster on the RTJ Trail. I don't really know which one was better, although I'm pretty confident I could guess which one would get 70+% of the votes around here...

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff brings up music, and I keep thinking about that parallel too. A lot of people who profess to be music lovers and critics are really just guys who love classic rock (or some other genre of their choice) to the exclusion of everything else. Which is fine, if that's your taste... but it doesn't make for criticism worth a tritone. Dancepop is a genre with a lot of throwaway crap floating around, but that doesn't mean Future Nostalgia isn't frickin' awesome. If you can't tell the difference between that and Aqua, I don't really care about your opinions on Steely Dan either.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Going with the music concept, I listen to classical music the most. I do still like Dylan and some of that generation. How many classical music stations are still on the radio. There is only one on Sirius Xm! yet, Mozart does not go our of style.


We have written a bunch about the changes that some of the classic courses have undergone. I love what was done to Philly Cricket, for instance. I wonder how long it will be before someone plants the odd tree on this hole or that hole. When I first joined Four Streams the bunkers had eyebrows. It was a cool look. They are gone. The same is true of Ballyhack. Guys loved how they looked but hated losing a ball that was supposed to be in play.


How long will it be before clubs soften some of the sloping undulating greens that have been built in the last decade?


I wonder what the next "great thing" will be.

[Peter Pallotta]

Some good posts on a good thread.

I think it comes down to needs: each of us has differing needs at various points in our lives.

And those needs, met or unmet, tend to shape our thinking.

As Nietzsche (I think) said: 'Every philosophy contains within it the author's autobiography'.
 

[Tom_Doak]

How many of us would stand up and proclaim their love for a much maligned design, for fear of getting shot down.

No doubt, most people's tastes go back and forth.  When I wrote The Confidential Guide in 1988, one much maligned course I stood up for was The National Golf Links of America, which wasn't in the top 100 lists at all, due to being considered too quirky and not challenging enough.


Sticking your neck out to praise a lesser-known or less-celebrated course is the way you prove that you know what you are talking about - or that you don't  . 

[Tommy Williamsen]

How many of us would stand up and proclaim their love for a much maligned design, for fear of getting shot down.

No doubt, most people's tastes go back and forth.  When I wrote The Confidential Guide in 1988, one much maligned course I stood up for was The National Golf Links of America, which wasn't in the top 100 lists at all, due to being considered too quirky and not challenging enough.


Sticking your neck out to praise a lesser-known or less-celebrated course is the way you prove that you know what you are talking about - or that you don't  .

I suspect that architects go with what has brought them success. If X works well at Y course, why not do something similar at the next course. Fazio may not be GCA's favorite architect but he knows what works for most of the rest of the country.

[Ira Fishman]

I think that some courses are timeless.


Ira

[Terry Lavin]

I expect it would be natural to find new courses your favorites as you expand out your playing experience, no? 


As you know, my first course was Medinah, which I did hold as a standard for a while.  Later, my tastes trended toward the aesthetic and not so hard. 


Some of the change away from Medinah came from its disdain on this site, LOL, which only goes to prove some of our changing preferences may be based on wanting to be part of the in crowd.  How many of us would stand up and proclaim their love for a much maligned design, for fear of getting shot down.

Let me just say it: I love Medinah. It was one of my earliest introduction to tour-worthy golf and I enjoyed the task of attacking it. And failing. Then, when I started to learn a little bit about gca, I recognized the tree issues, but still loved it.


I’m talking #3, of course, but I started loving Medinah more when Doak renovated #1. Such fun!  Then the #2 redo created a “breather” course. Brilliant! 


Now I’m hopeful that the next renovation of #3 will restore the internal contour on the greens and hope the end product will be fun AND difficult. That’s the tough combo platter, but it’s achievable.

[Luke Sutton]

I wonder if Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor reputation & ranking will have a resurgence?

I think I put a pretty good dent in that one.  Plus, "resurgence" is too strong a word; apart from their own p.r. not many people professed to like it.

Stone Harbor... Pete Dye’s finest design 


You did dedicate almost an entire page to it in the original Confidential Guide. I wish I could go see the course BECAUSE of the terrible review you gave it. Someone needs to restore it lolol


I recently saw a pretty genius advertising campaign by Snowbird Mountain where they put their 1 star reviews on billboards. Something about a place that draws such emotion is intriguing.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’ve mentioned this a few times before but despite growing up on and loving links golf, the rarity for me was water on a golf course. In the late eighties, we had precisely zero courses in the north-east of Scotland with water hazards (it was what made the burn at Carnoustie so exciting).


So when Letham Grange came along (marketed as Scotland’s Augusta precisely because it had 2 or 3 water hazards) and then Newmachar, I fell for these kind of courses. I was still enthralled with water hazards when I moved to Ireland in 1999. Took a few years and a more heavy involvement in GCA to start reverting back to what I grew up on.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am not a big fan of water anywhere, but if there is one or at the most two water features, I can live with it. 17 and 18 at Carnoustie are pretty exciting.

[Mark_Fine]

Everything ebbs and flows.  How many architects ever built something that at the time they didn't think was special (I hope very few since they were putting their own name on it).  All those courses were perceived to be pretty good at the time but preferences change.  The same will and is happening to many of the courses being built in the last 20 years.  I was just at a newer design (roughly 15 years old) that had the rugged bunkering surrounded by fescue eyebrows, etc.  As cool as it looks, many members seem to be tiring of it (too many lost balls, awkward difficult stances that older golfers struggle with, extra maintenance, and slowed up play).  I wouldn't be surprised if it disappears in the next few years (the squeaky wheel gets the oil).  I don't know if the original architect is overseeing the process but they have already started to take some of it out.  Just one example of preferences changing over time. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark, at Four Streams Smyers was brought back. AT Ballyhack It was a combination of Lester and superintendent.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Jeff brings up music, and I keep thinking about that parallel too. A lot of people who profess to be music lovers and critics are really just guys who love classic rock (or some other genre of their choice) to the exclusion of everything else. Which is fine, if that's your taste... but it doesn't make for criticism worth a tritone. Dancepop is a genre with a lot of throwaway crap floating around, but that doesn't mean Future Nostalgia isn't frickin' awesome. If you can't tell the difference between that and Aqua, I don't really care about your opinions on Steely Dan either.

^^^This post FTW. Had to check out the Dua Lipa right quick, as an unapologetic pop music listener that's good shit. The music analogy is spot on. When you're at work or at the gym you don't need heavy listening like "Fear Inoculum." What you need is something quick, easy, and gets you moving. Just the same, sometimes you just need to golf, and your local quirky muni is right there for you. "Barbie Girl" is a jam though lol.


Another way to put it is 80s jams, specifically 80s alternative. The raw, instrumental Grunge movement of the 90s absolutely buried these heavily synthesized gems, only to have them come back huge in the last decade or so. It's literally my favorite genre currently. So is NGLA the Depeche Mode of golf? (ducks)

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I wonder if Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor reputation & ranking will have a resurgence?

I think I put a pretty good dent in that one.  Plus, "resurgence" is too strong a word; apart from their own p.r. not many people professed to like it.

Stone Harbor... Pete Dye’s finest design 


You did dedicate almost an entire page to it in the original Confidential Guide. I wish I could go see the course BECAUSE of the terrible review you gave it. Someone needs to restore it lolol


I recently saw a pretty genius advertising campaign by Snowbird Mountain where they put their 1 star reviews on billboards. Something about a place that draws such emotion is intriguing.

Yeah the Snowbird campaign is awesome. Too raw, too rugged, and TOO MUCH FRICKIN' SNOW!

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy,
I just took out at least a dozen or more symmetrically shaped mounds boarding the back sides of greens on two courses I am currently working on.  When they were put in, obviously someone thought they helped and looked great (or why would they spend all that time and move all that dirt to do it)?  The difference without them is dramatic and everyone loves it.  But you still have to wonder if everyone felt the same why they were added (they were not part of the original design). 
Mark