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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Rankings From 1 to 100
« on: May 05, 2021, 08:59:45 AM »
As some here know, when I was writing for GOLF Magazine in 1983, I helped put together the first ranking of golf courses that actually put all of the courses in order from 1-100, instead of just putting them in groups of ten.


It wasn't really a deliberate decision on my part.  We were just the first to send out a ballot and have all the panelists grade all of the courses they had seen, which provided numbers to back up the rankings.  [I did not even realize that GOLF DIGEST had never done this to that point, until right after the ranking came out.]  When I had about half the ballots back, I sent an update to the editor George Peper of how things stood, and he got excited:  "You mean we can have a #1 course instead of just a top ten?"


[Oddly, that first time, with a small data sample of only 50 or 60 raters, two courses finished in a flat tie for the #1 position, and George broke the tie in favor of Muirfield over Pebble Beach by excluding his own vote, which was higher for Pebble.  I wonder how many current editors of rankings would break the tie by going with the course they liked less?]


Jon Cummings and others with a background in math and science frequently argue that you shouldn't have rankings so precise, because raw scores of a 7 or 8 cannot be parsed fairly at four decimal places [the "significant digits rule" in math].  I suppose that's true, even though all of this stuff is just opinion not scientific "data".  But if you did so you would be listing 19 courses tied for 46th place, 7 courses tied for 65th, etc., and that would look pretty stupid.  Likewise, if you argue the data is only good enough to break down a top ten and a second ten, you would be letting the third or fourth decimal place separate 10th from 11th, and making a more significant judgment that the #11 course is "second ten".  That last point is why I recommended to George that we might as well do the whole list in order.  The data is not specific enough to tell us a course should be 11th, but it does strongly suggest it's closer to 10th than to 20th.


But, from the beginning, I understood as well as anyone that there was often no more than an eyelash separating 25th and 31st places, and anyone who put too much stock in a course falling six places on a ranking did not understand the nature of rankings.  Unfortunately, the list of people who do not understand this now seems to include everyone from editors to readers to green committee chairmen.  And there are lots and lots of clubs out there spending $$$ doing work to try to improve their ranking, without any understanding of just how capricious the rankings are.


One of the ironies of such rankings is that the longer and more deeply you are involved with them, the less seriously you will take them, because you start to understand you're just splitting hairs.  But kudos to the new editors of all of these rankings, including Ran and Derek Duncan and Chris Bertram, for at least trying to make them better while they still believe it's possible.  ;)

Joe Hellrung

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 09:12:11 AM »
Well said.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2021, 09:24:40 AM »
I actually prefer un-numbered groupings of 10 to specific rankings.


I'd share with you the methodology for how I would arrive at the groupings but Im saving that for when I run my own publication and produce a Top 100 so infallible it gets only to the second page of comments on GCA.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 09:30:37 AM »
I don’t think the vast majority of people that look at these lists bother to vet or understand the methodology. You won’t get anyone to chirp about their course really being tied for 46th based on the “significant digits rule”. The masses see the ranking and accept it.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 09:57:43 AM »
At the risk of embarrassing myself, I will admit that the difference between a #10 and #25 ranking carries far less weight to me than what the corresponding pictures look like. Aesthetically, I know what appeals to me. I assume that a course ranked #25 in the country or the world is going to be exceptional no matter what methodology is used. And so a course at 50 that looks rugged and quirky would draw my interest over a course at 12 that looks manicured and "fair." Both are almost certainly very good, and I guarantee I would enjoy playing either one. But rankings are by definition entirely subjective. Making the list is a great starting point for maybe uncovering a course I didn't otherwise know about. But after that, it sorts of like online dating: appearance matters.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 10:10:18 AM »
Most of us know a member of Sand Hills. If you're not top 10 than you are no better than top 20. It comes down to the very core of your being.  Anything else is just another gouge in the sand. No different than being 100 or 101.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2021, 10:29:12 AM »
 My college statistics professor once said: "The mere idea that you can perfectly, or even ideally, measure or convert the qualitative with the quantitative is wildly difficult at best, and patently absurd at worst."
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2021, 11:49:25 AM »
At the risk of embarrassing myself, I will admit that the difference between a #10 and #25 ranking carries far less weight to me than what the corresponding pictures look like.


Well, you have to, because that's all they give you besides the number!


To me, that's the worst part about all the rankings:  there can be no real written discussion of them, or of the courses that succeed or fail, because the story has to back up a ranking result that the editor probably doesn't entirely agree with.  Instead, they write long-winded generalizations about what's important to the editor, even though it's possible that none of those factors had anything to do with the results.


Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2021, 11:56:22 AM »
  “Most of us know a member of Sand Hills.” Really?

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2021, 12:32:58 PM »
As a former Golfweek Rater I always thought it would have been interesting for them to publish an occasional article on which courses scored highest (say Top 20) on the different categories, with editorial content.


But I bet if you look at those numbers on a single category such as tree management you would see how much the raters are forcing the numbers into justifying the resulting score, even when the only number that matters is the overall grade.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2021, 12:58:17 PM »
At the risk of embarrassing myself, I will admit that the difference between a #10 and #25 ranking carries far less weight to me than what the corresponding pictures look like.


Well, you have to, because that's all they give you besides the number!


To me, that's the worst part about all the rankings:  there can be no real written discussion of them, or of the courses that succeed or fail, because the story has to back up a ranking result that the editor probably doesn't entirely agree with.  Instead, they write long-winded generalizations about what's important to the editor, even though it's possible that none of those factors had anything to do with the results.


Also @ Mike Trenham - the fundamental problem is, these magazines arent interested in talking about golf courses.  They do a Top 100 every year because they know it generates clicks, if it didnt, they couldn't care less.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2021, 01:33:40 PM »
The problem with ranking them in groups of 10 is what if you fall from 19 to 21 and now you're bumped to the next group down.

It still doesn't solve the problem of a GM or Head of Golf having a mini-flip out over the perceived downturn, even if its only by a whisker.

I like the idea of a top 100 list, in Alphabetical order.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 01:46:51 PM by Kalen Braley »

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2021, 01:44:35 PM »
To TD's original point, this is why I like the Doak scale so much.  In traditional rankings, there's room for only one course at #1, one course at #2, etc.  Likewise, there's only room for ten courses in the top 10, ten courses in the second 10, etc.  The Doak scale does not place artificial limits on the number of courses.  Think about school grades, where you basically have 13 scores available from A+ to D-, plus F.  If the teacher hands out a quiz and every student scores 100%, wouldn't they all get the same grade?  Once you earn an A grade, there's no further attempt to differentiate between who got the highest A and who barely squeaked in.  What if we built a ranking of top courses using grades of A+, A, and A- with no limits on the numbers in each category and no further debate about the courses earning each grade?  And no artificial like top 100, top 200 etc.  Any ranking will have its detractors, but those with the only beef I'd be concerned about would be the B+ courses.  To those, I'd simply say "step up your game".

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2021, 01:58:47 PM »
To TD's original point, this is why I like the Doak scale so much.  In traditional rankings, there's room for only one course at #1, one course at #2, etc.  Likewise, there's only room for ten courses in the top 10, ten courses in the second 10, etc.  The Doak scale does not place artificial limits on the number of courses.  Think about school grades, where you basically have 13 scores available from A+ to D-, plus F.  If the teacher hands out a quiz and every student scores 100%, wouldn't they all get the same grade?  Once you earn an A grade, there's no further attempt to differentiate between who got the highest A and who barely squeaked in.  What if we built a ranking of top courses using grades of A+, A, and A- with no limits on the numbers in each category and no further debate about the courses earning each grade?  And no artificial like top 100, top 200 etc.  Any ranking will have its detractors, but those with the only beef I'd be concerned about would be the B+ courses.  To those, I'd simply say "step up your game".


Ratings versus rankings-Apples to Oranges.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2021, 02:02:13 PM »
Tom Fazio said it best.  His quote was along the lines, “Pine Valley is the #1 course in the country and I could name 200 other courses where an argument could be made they are #2. 


The lists make for good discussions/debates and if someone didn’t try to create these lists we wouldn’t know where to go play  ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2021, 02:25:12 PM »
Tom Fazio said it best.  His quote was along the lines, “Pine Valley is the #1 course in the country and I could name 200 other courses where an argument could be made they are #2. 

The lists make for good discussions/debates and if someone didn’t try to create these lists we wouldn’t know where to go play  ;D




The lists do not really make for good discussion or debate, as we keep proving here, year after year.  There is really nothing to debate about them.  Look at how little your post contributes!  ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2021, 02:57:04 PM »
Tom Fazio said it best.  His quote was along the lines, “Pine Valley is the #1 course in the country and I could name 200 other courses where an argument could be made they are #2. 

The lists make for good discussions/debates and if someone didn’t try to create these lists we wouldn’t know where to go play  ;D

The lists do not really make for good discussion or debate, as we keep proving here, year after year.  There is really nothing to debate about them.  Look at how little your post contributes!  ;)

Tom,

There are some who would claim topics like this one make for the best debates because they will never be even remotely provable and hence the debate rages on and on and on in our instinctual & insatiable drive to categorize and solve everything.

To me, its no different than ranking the hottest women, best cuisine, best movies, or best music genre...its truly an exercise in futility attempting to assign qualitative measurements to highly subjective topics/things which mostly come down to personal preferences.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2021, 03:46:24 PM »
At best the rankings are a snapshot in time of what kind of architecture et al is in vogue at the moment. Thirty years ago clubs wanted white sand with the bunkers edged to perfection. Some still do it. However, how many courses do you know that threw out the white sand, roughed up the edges and now have more natural looking sand and unkempt edges?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 09:15:53 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2021, 04:17:23 PM »
The first time I ever really engaged with ratings was when I bought a copy of the Peugeot European Golf Guide on a holiday in France. It was basically a European attempt at a Confidential Guide (just kidding Tom...). It gave points from 13 to 19 for the 'top' 1,000 courses in Europe, including the UK - so a 7 point scalre. There was no attempt to rank within them. It was a pointer. The commentary was often very average but I don't think it ever out a course 1 away from what I thought.


My mates and I would play a course and we'd pretty much always agree on a number for it - without a tangible criteria. The more you used it the more it just made sense.


I set up a little blog site a few years ago and used this system but I made a mistake. I tried to rank within the numbers and still do. When I have a bit of time I'm going to change that and just put them in alphabetical order. within their 'bands'. People will still disagree with some of my choices (I have Kingston Heath and Cape Wickham a 19 to RM and Barnbougle's 18s) but I think I'll be more comfortable with that approach. It was good enough for Tom after all and frankly my detailed rankings mean nothing to anyone but me.


That will work much better for my little hobbby site, however, I suspect that it wouldn't sell many magazines. Magazines need people to buy them, websites need the clicks. Alas it's life. An argument about a controverisal new top 10 entry, or a drop of 10 places for an old favourite, will get a lot more eyeballs than something being moved up from a Peugoet 17 to 18, or Doak 7 to 8.


However, I think the 'Top 100 forced rankings can do some good. Take North Berwick. It entered Golf's top 100 in 2007 and has gone 98, 93, 89, 68, 63, 51, 37 since. In the UK Golf World UK & Ireland list it has gone from 31 to 12 in the last 10 years.


Is that a good thing? Well, it's good for the club by the looks of the green fees. Others may know the visitor number trajectory over that period but it must have gone through the roof.  More people than ever are getting to experience one of golf's masterpieces. Without the rankings I doubt that would have happened. It needed the eyeballs and the buzz to become a must play for visitors to the area because of that publicity.


Of course, there will be examples of courses that have been overpromoted in less reputable rankings that have attracted visitors for the wrong reasons. Like many here I feel jaded by rankings at some times. But I think that in some ways these have done some good.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2021, 06:22:06 PM »
Tom Doak,


I’m not sold on your premise that all the ties would look stupid - especially if the raw data supported that - in fact, that may actually further the concept of separation in subsequent rankings.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2021, 07:50:34 PM »
Tom,
I remember years ago when Ran said he could list all the best courses he has seen/played in numerical order (I wonder if he still believes he can do this)?  HIs 147+1 custodians does that for those that impact that game.  I can't tell you which is the 47th best course I have ever played (at least not with any sound conviction) or my 247th.  But I can tell you what I think are 10's, and 9's and 8's,... but that is about as good as I can do.  If I listed my own Top 200 list it would be in groups based on those round numbers and not in numerical order. 


All these different rankings I believe make for discussion and debate.  I don't agree with any of them but I don't think any of the magazines would expect me to agree.  Would I like to see them reflect closer to my own opinion - for sure.  But that probably won't ever happen because they are all so subjective.  But one thing I will say is that it does help A LOT for those who are putting the lists together to have seen A LOT.  That to me gives a list more credibility.  I was talking to someone a day ago about the new GD Top 200 and he was saying he didn't agree with most of it.  I asked how many of the courses on the list he had played and he answered 18.  I didn't need to hear any more.  If he had said say 150, we would have had a much better discussion. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 08:13:45 PM »
I will always prefer rankings in groups as they fall. I don't like ordinal ranking or a specified number in a group. Why not have as many different groupings as it takes and however many courses within a group as it takes? OK, the writer may have to work harder to name these groups if they want to be clever and actually come up with a meaningful piece to frame the rankings. Surely this is more entertaining than 1,2,3... or 1-10, 11-20 etc.

More and more I only pay attention to the rankings with an edge such as most fun, under 50 quid or whatever. This approach is only limited by the editor's imagination.

I can't understand how mags successfully sell essentially the same list each year. Its bloody dull and provides virtually no new courses of interest to possibly go play. Even if a new course makes the list everybody knows all about it beforehand.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 08:41:10 PM »


All these different rankings I believe make for discussion and debate.  I don't agree with any of them but I don't think any of the magazines would expect me to agree.  Would I like to see them reflect closer to my own opinion - for sure.  But that probably won't ever happen because they are all so subjective.  But one thing I will say is that it does help A LOT for those who are putting the lists together to have seen A LOT.  That to me gives a list more credibility.  I was talking to someone a day ago about the new GD Top 200 and he was saying he didn't agree with most of it.  I asked how many of the courses on the list he had played and he answered 18.  I didn't need to hear any more.  If he had said say 150, we would have had a much better discussion.


You still have yet to cite anything that constitutes an interesting discussion or debate.  Having posters say "I think this course or that is overrated/underrated" with no context is NOT a discussion.


As Sean observes, there are zero courses in GOLF DIGEST's list that could be taken to represent a surprise newcomer.  The closest thing is probably Congaree, and they've told me almost nothing about it.  But then they've had places like Canyata and Rich Harvest Farms on their list for years, and they've told me nothing about them, either.


What discussion or debate has this prompted?  It's been like ten years of radio silence.  Their inclusion has prompted almost no discussion on Golf Club Atlas, apart from mockery from people who have probably not seen them.


P.S.  Somewhere in my Confidential Guide files, I have Ran's listing of 1-100 in numerical order from 25 years ago.  I doubt he wants me to dig it out and post it.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2021, 09:03:44 PM »


I can't understand how mags successfully sell essentially the same list each year. Its bloody dull and provides virtually no new courses of interest to possibly go play. Even if a new course makes the list everybody knows all about it beforehand.

Ciao
Ratings and lists are simply a part of the game-like Top 100 Teachers. Just another way to glean content.


Three things.
1.Top 100 box tickers tend to travel more and spend more $,so therefore their eyeballs are more worthwhile for Magazines than say an afficionado of the Top 100 under 60 pounds-which may well be more of a local/day trip crowd.
 2.$1300 x 1000+ raters is real revenue-the Top 200(and the State lists) is a virtual menu/Travel Guide for raters, and a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.
3.Most raters take it pretty seriously-we may not agree with their results or methodology, but then you can't expect someone to know what they don't know-or perhaps we just have different tastes(or biases).
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rankings From 1 to 100
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2021, 09:14:46 PM »
At best the rankings are a snapshot in time of what kind of architecture et al is in vogue at the moment.


This is quite accurate. 


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